TX - Cameron Redus, 23, UIW student, fatally shot by campus PD officer, 6 Dec 2013

[oh_gal]

So Cameron Redus was unarmed but allegedly "attacked" the officer - making him fear for his life... I wonder what this unarmed young man could have done to make an armed officer fear for his life and fire 4 to 8 shots at him?

One of his friends interviewed in this article:




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520586/Campus-officer-shot-dead-unarmed-student-Cameron-Redus-says-felt-life-danger.html

The headlines I saw said that Redus attacked the officer with his own baton.
If true, I don't blame the officer for defending himself. I would have felt threatened, too. (Please note my emphasis of, "if true").

Here's the story that says Redus attacked the officer:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/09/justice/texas-campus-officer-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[Reader]

The headlines I saw said that Redus attacked the officer with his own baton.
If true, I don't blame the officer for defending himself. I would have felt threatened, too. (Please note my emphasis of, "if true").

Here's the story that says Redus attacked the officer:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/09/justice/texas-campus-officer-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Thanks, oh gal. From your link:

Redus pulled into an apartment complex, and Carter followed, mistakenly reporting the wrong street location to police dispatchers, which prompted his call to be routed from the Alamo Heights Police Department to its San Antonio counterparts, the statement said. This caused a delay of several minutes in response time.

"During the wait for assistance, the officer tried to restrain the suspect who repeatedly resisted," the statement said. "During the struggle, the officer attempted to subdue the suspect with his baton. ... The baton was taken by the suspect who used it to hit the officer.

"The officer drew his firearm and was able to knock the baton from the suspect who continued to resist arrest. Shots were fired."

Well, I've still got questions. Why was it necessary to call for assistance in order to issue a traffic citation? If he is so well trained and experienced, he should know how to handle that without assistance.

Are these people aware of what his experience is? Floating from dept. to dept., never staying long. I want to know why and what problems they've had with him before.

How convenient there is no camera. No LE vehicle should be without one in today's world. If his fell off, let him use another vehicle with one on it.

OK, even if Cameron did take the baton (we only have the officer's version of this), the officer had already knocked it down, but still pulled his gun and shot him. At the time the trigger was pulled, Cameron had no weapon. Resisting arrest for a traffic stop does not have a death sentence.

Again, just hand the person the citation or leave it on the car or mail it. It's not the end of the world if it's served later. Certainly not worth getting into this confrontation and killing someone. Cameron may have been speeding but nothing was said about him putting anyone else in danger, running into another car. He went home.

 

[jjenny]

Camera was supposed to have been mounted to his car, but fell off due to poor gluing job. How convinient. I guess we will never know what happened.
How exactly was the student able to get control of the officer'rs baton? Does he have any injuries to show that he was actually hit with this baton?

 

[jjenny]

The headlines I saw said that Redus attacked the officer with his own baton.
If true, I don't blame the officer for defending himself. I would have felt threatened, too. (Please note my emphasis of, "if true").

Here's the story that says Redus attacked the officer:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/09/justice/texas-campus-officer-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

If he was supposedly attacked with a baton, does he have any injuries to show for it? Recently cop killed a firefighter. That cop had severe facial injuries, so his claims of self-defense sound believable to me.

 

[Paragirl]

The headlines I saw said that Redus attacked the officer with his own baton.
If true, I don't blame the officer for defending himself. I would have felt threatened, too. (Please note my emphasis of, "if true").

Here's the story that says Redus attacked the officer:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/09/justice/texas-campus-officer-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

IF true then I have to ask myself, how did he disarm this experienced officer of his baton? Does the officer have any injuries to prove this allegation? Shouldn't an experienced, well-trained LE officer have the skills and training to defuse such a situation? Is a college student with a baton enough of a threat on your life to defend yourself by firing 4 to 6 shots at him? Wouldn't the officer have demanded that Redus drop his baton, and if so, why wouldn't the witness have overheard such an exchange (based on his account it sounds like he heard the exchange pretty clearly)? Why was this officer so determined to arrest and detain Redus, apparently at all costs, for speeding and driving erratically? Couldn't he have taken down his plate number and addressed the issue later when he had back up? Or put a speeding ticket in his mailbox??

I just can't understand how an alleged traffic violation/speeding stop escalated to this deadly end. Is a police baton as equally and immediately deadly as a firearm? Also, apparently the officer was able to disarm Redus of the baton, and THEN fired at him!

"The officer drew his firearm and was able to knock the baton from the suspect who continued to resist arrest. Shots were fired."

I don't begrudge the officer the right to defend himself, but the actions have to be proportionate and appropriate to the circumstances. You can't run around shooting people just because you don't feel in control of the situation. I certainly hope that an experienced officer, as Carter is reported to be, would not have felt his life was at risk because a college student got hold of his baton, and was sarcastic with him.

MOO

 

[liljim]

if we changed just a few of the extraneous details of this story NONE of these insinuations and accusations would be made against the police officer...

i have no idea what happened, i dont think an intelligent conclusion can be reached yet without a lot more information.

 

[jjenny]

"The police department's statements are in direct contrast with a university-issued statement which claims the police truck's dash cam had fallen off the evening before the incident."

http://www.khou.com/news/local/AHPD...t-close-range-during-struggle--235152821.html

 

[liljim]

"AHPD says they have a six-minute video from the rear of Cpl. Chris Carter's police truck"

is not in direct contrast at all with saying there was no dash cam, it would be in contrast with saying there was no camera operating whatsoever.

of course whether or not the statements were intended to be forthcoming depends on what exactly was asked, replied, and known at the time.

for example if a reporter asked "is there any video of the incident?" or even "was there a dashcam recording the incident?" and LE replies "his dashcam was not working/mounted at the time" when the person answering knows there is a recording from another camera then that is incomplete AND misleading...

but if the LE rep only knows that there is no dashcam and is uncertain about any other cameras then it is just incomplete.

 

[liljim]

also it would seem to me that the presence of some recording (whether video or just audio) should be good news to anyone interested in the truth of this situation being known.

 

[Trident]

Video report:

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/12/09/cops-shoot-college-student.cnn.html

Shows the students mourning Cameron and talking about how nice and non-confrontational he was. From what we've seen so far, it's hard for me to believe he approached the officer. They had pulled in and stopped at Cameron's home; I think the officer approached him and grabbed him to detain him to give him the traffic ticket. Why couldn't it wait? He could have put it under the windshield wiper or mailed it. So instead, for a lousy traffic ticket a brilliant and well liked UNARMED student with a good future, who could make a contribution to society is killed, devastating his family and an entire school.

With this officer's background of being moved around from LE to LE depts. for some reason, there have been problems with him in the past.

As shown above the Texas Rangers are now involved in the investigation and I'm sure they will get to the bottom of this.

Also, welcome to the forum and the case, Paragirl!

BBM - seems to me our best and brightest are being murdered. I wonder why.

 

[Reader]

if we changed just a few of the extraneous details of this story NONE of these insinuations and accusations would be made against the police officer...

i have no idea what happened, i dont think an intelligent conclusion can be reached yet without a lot more information.

Most of the threads on the forum could be described the same way. We can only go on the information in the news or other verified sources to discuss and ask questions about a case. Part of what we do is to try to get that additional information.

 

[liljim]

Most of the threads on the forum could be described the same way. We can only go on the information in the news or other verified sources to discuss and ask questions about a case. Part of what we do is to try to get that additional information.

there is a vast difference between speculating based on the pertinent facts known and making pretty strong insinuations based mostly on extraneous details or things that are completely unknown.

 

[Reader]

"AHPD says they have a six-minute video from the rear of Cpl. Chris Carter's police truck"

is not in direct contrast at all with saying there was no dash cam, it would be in contrast with saying there was no camera operating whatsoever.

of course whether or not the statements were intended to be forthcoming depends on what exactly was asked, replied, and known at the time.

for example if a reporter asked "is there any video of the incident?" or even "was there a dashcam recording the incident?" and LE replies "his dashcam was not working/mounted at the time" when the person answering knows there is a recording from another camera then that is incomplete AND misleading...

but if the LE rep only knows that there is no dashcam and is uncertain about any other cameras then it is just incomplete.

also it would seem to me that the presence of some recording (whether video or just audio) should be good news to anyone interested in the truth of this situation being known.

BBM - seems to me our best and brightest are being murdered. I wonder why.

Here is what the article linked above says about the encounter:

AHPD says they have a six-minute video from the rear of Cpl. Chris Carter's police truck that shows Redus walking to his apartment even though the police truck lights were on. The police department said Cpl. Carter then told Redus to put his hands on the truck when a struggle over the officer's baton ensued.

"Officer Carter instructed Redus 14 times to place his hands behind his back, informed him three times he was under arrest and to stop resisting 56 times," Alamo Heights Chief Richard Pruitt said.

The student was then shot five times with a .40 caliber handgun, including in the chest and the eye, according to AHPD.

The police department's statements are in direct contrast with a university-issued statement which claims the police truck's dash cam had fallen off the evening before the incident.......

The university claims the student and the officer got in a struggle over the steel baton the officer was carrying when the officer produced his firearm before knocking the baton from Redus. The student continued to resist arrest when Cpl. Carter fired shots, according to a university statement.

I agree with what you're saying to an extent. It depends on what questions were asked and what the LE rep knew at the time and we don't know everything about that from this article. You would think that they saw the cam on the rear of the truck right away. If they didn't share this info it could be because they wanted to review it first or it could be because they were withholding the info for some reason. I am glad there is audio that will help get to the truth of what happened. What this particular article tells me is:

*The officer intended to arrest Cameron, not just serve him with a ticket.

*When Cameron apparently did not comply in putting his hands on the truck the struggle over the baton began. What was the officer doing with the baton, just threatening or had he hit the boy with it?

*Again, we are told the baton was knocked down BEFORE the shots were fired, and that Cameron was shot 5 times, including in the eye. That seems like excessive force to me. One shot in the chest should have stopped him from struggling. The reason I question the officer is the school claimed he was highly experienced and trained. His training TO ME was not used this night or this incident would not have escalated to this point.

I do think this situation could have been handled much better without the tragedy of Cameron's death for a traffic stop. Why did such a simple contact turn into such a deadly encounter? I don't think there is a conspiracy to kill the best and brightest in the country, just want to know why this one death happened and was it justified. Apparently the DA also wants to know:

Both the AHPD and the Texas Rangers are investigating the case. Bexar County District Attorney's office has been brought in for oversight. The DA's involvement is notable because in other recent officer-involved shootings the DA's office hasn't been involved until the agency's investigations are complete.

 

[Reader]

there is a vast difference between speculating based on the pertinent facts known and making pretty strong insinuations based mostly on extraneous details or things that are completely unknown.

That's one opinion that can be expressed. Again, that's what we do here.

I explained above why I am questioning the actions taken by the officer in this incident.

We know from previous links on the thread that the officer has moved almost every year to a different LE dept., which is unusual to me and others. Was it by choice or were there problems with his performance, is a legitimate question considering what has happened.

What we do here is give our opinions and ask questions to get at the truth. Those are not 'strong insinuations' to me against the officer. I do believe he used excessive force and that this tragedy did not have to occur. Others may not agree which is fine.

I'm interested now in knowing why the DA is already involved before the LE has completed their investigation.

 

[jjenny]

My guess is the student was intoxicated (reportedly he went to bars prior to this). Which is why, I presume, he was driving erratically. So I don't have a problem if a cop tried to stop him and detain him. It's his job. I do however question if it was necessary to shoot the student five times.
But in the end, just like in the recently killed firefighter, I presume the main culprit is going to be alcohol.

 

[Reader]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/10/justice/texas-campus-officer-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

In this account, a different story on the dashcam: it is on the front but came loose and pointed away from the front but there is audio, and LE now says Cameron charged with his arm raised after the baton was eliminated, did not stop after warnings and the officer shot. The officer does have injury where he was hit with the baton. No other weapons found.

From comments (rumor): the officer had GPS so how did he get the wrong address? The officer was much larger and should have been able to constrain the boy without deadly force, is trained to do this. The road Cameron was driving on is under construction and it's necessary to change lanes due to that.

****

Family of UIW student killed by cop disputes police account

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...putes-police-5050959.php?cmpid=newarttopalert

“Our family does not believe the officer's report,” the family wrote in a statement. “Cameron has never been an aggressive or confrontational person. Cameron's friends have said the same thing about him. For him to confront a police officer would be completely out of his character.”

The family also questioned Carter's decision to follow Redus, whom he reportedly did not know, from an off-campus location to his off-campus apartment.

There is a very interesting comment concerning corruption in the county and doubt of a good investigation outcome.

 

[liljim]

regarding the amount of times the cop shot, and the earlier comments on the idea of shooting to injure and that the location of shots somehow indicates a lack of respect for life...

this comes up often in shootings by LE, rarely do police ever shoot once and i dont recall ever hearing of any LE training regarding shooting for an arm or leg. if you need to use your weapon you are responding to deadly force and you are shooting center mass until the threat is eliminated.

this is why what can seem like an extraordinary amount of shots fired can be ruled "by the book" in many cases.

 

[liljim]

That's one opinion that can be expressed. Again, that's what we do here.

I explained above why I am questioning the actions taken by the officer in this incident.

We know from previous links on the thread that the officer has moved almost every year to a different LE dept., which is unusual to me and others. Was it by choice or were there problems with his performance, is a legitimate question considering what has happened.

What we do here is give our opinions and ask questions to get at the truth. Those are not 'strong insinuations' to me against the officer. I do believe he used excessive force and that this tragedy did not have to occur. Others may not agree which is fine.

I'm interested now in knowing why the DA is already involved before the LE has completed their investigation.

i will just reply once more then let this drop, i agree with most of what you say/post, nothing i have said prior has been directed at you specifically.

when i say "extraneous details" i mean exactly that by the dictionary definition, im not talking about people speculating regarding how things played out and whether police protocol was followed.

what im saying is that i could change a few of the reported details in this case and the way people would be responding to it would do a complete 180.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

My guess is the student was intoxicated (reportedly he went to bars prior to this). Which is why, I presume, he was driving erratically. So I don't have a problem if a cop tried to stop him and detain him. It's his job. I do however question if it was necessary to shoot the student five times.
But in the end, just like in the recently killed firefighter, I presume the main culprit is going to be alcohol.

my guess is the campus cop , carter, knew he was out of his jurisdiction when he lied to dispatchers about his actual location before he followed Cameron into his apt parking lot -and the culprit will be an over zealous officer.

 

[Paragirl]

regarding the amount of times the cop shot, and the earlier comments on the idea of shooting to injure and that the location of shots somehow indicates a lack of respect for life...

this comes up often in shootings by LE, rarely do police ever shoot once and i dont recall ever hearing of any LE training regarding shooting for an arm or leg. if you need to use your weapon you are responding to deadly force and you are shooting center mass until the threat is eliminated.

this is why what can seem like an extraordinary amount of shots fired can be ruled "by the book" in many cases.

BBM

This is the biggest issue I have with this entire story, none of the details disclosed so far indicate that the officer was responding to a DEADLY FORCE. Again, I would hope that an officer who is described as having extensive experience and training, would not consider a college student wielding the officer's own baton, who was then disarmed by the same officer, to be a deadly force. I would hope the officer would be a little more hearty than that.

MOO