TX TX - DeBARDELEBEN, James Mitchell "Mike"

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thefirstman, I agree the Secret Service may have fumbled some on that first DeB counterfeit arrest. I do feel, though, that they did good to investigate, document and catalogue the evidence of "other crimes" found the second time they nabbed him. I give them credit there. They were in a rather odd position -- they had evidence that those "other" crimes probably were committed but the quandary of tracking them down; the FBI, when first consulted, basically told them "That's interesting -- come back when you have more to go on."

I have asked the same question as you about why they do not release edited, faces-only pics of the unidentified women in his photographs, as was done with Alcala. I feel a bit better, having learned that they DID do that amongst LE early on -- but I still wish they would do so publicly. One argument against that I've heard is that some women in the pics may have been willing partners and/or unwilling but survived, never reported, and deserve their privacy.

I'd love it if the SS would release a detailed timeline of DeB's whereabouts, anything they have. I don't see a good argument against that.
 
thefirstman, one more thing: Since you seem to have a special interest in looking for cases in which DeB might have been the perp, would you please do me a favor and take a look, when you have opportunity, at the WS thread for Carlene Tengelsen -- see what you think?

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154406"]GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
thefirstman, one more thing: Since you seem to have a special interest in looking for cases in which DeB might have been the perp, would you please do me a favor and take a look, when you have opportunity, at the WS thread for Carlene Tengelsen -- see what you think?

GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I am convinced that was him. The car shuffle. The vanishing from a mall. The town going on a massive manhunt.

The rupture of innocence for a whole community. A family suffering for a generation without any clue as to what happened.

She was on my DBLN timeline - but far from the first he got in Georgia.
 
thefirstman, I agree the Secret Service may have fumbled some on that first DeB counterfeit arrest. I do feel, though, that they did good to investigate, document and catalogue the evidence of "other crimes" found the second time they nabbed him. I give them credit there. They were in a rather odd position -- they had evidence that those "other" crimes probably were committed but the quandary of tracking them down; the FBI, when first consulted, basically told them "That's interesting -- come back when you have more to go on."

I have asked the same question as you about why they do not release edited, faces-only pics of the unidentified women in his photographs, as was done with Alcala. I feel a bit better, having learned that they DID do that amongst LE early on -- but I still wish they would do so publicly. One argument against that I've heard is that some women in the pics may have been willing partners and/or unwilling but survived, never reported, and deserve their privacy.

I'd love it if the SS would release a detailed timeline of DeB's whereabouts, anything they have. I don't see a good argument against that.

Well you and I see this differently.

Please Backwoods - I hope you do not experience my response to you as in anyway personal towards you - to me you represent the bubble that the SS has created for their own escapes from culpability.

Remember they were and are paid an enormous sum of money by each and every tax paying citizen of this country to secure and protect us from the worse actions and actors amongst us.

To me - it defies credulity to be speaking of torture photographs found in a murderer's rape room - which was found by the SS during DBLN 1976 arrest as "fumbling evidence". Underage girls and women were being tortured with ligature marks on their arms and legs - being sodomized - crying - being destroyed.

Tengelsen's photos were likely on his wall - as she was likely being destroyed by DBLN over days! So were the Lyon girls photos likely up there too. And do not forget that since I was here in the DC area circa 1975 I remember quite distinctly the fact that the Lyon girls were all over the front pages of the Washington Post and Washington Star and TV and posters in restaurants and shopping malls and so on for one whole year March 1975 to March 1976 when he was arrested. The police and family were desperate to find the perpetrator - a perverted psychopath in their midst.

In order for the profound level of professional neglect to be absorbed in a more complete way - imagine that today - minimum their are/were likely more than 1000 victims and again MINIMUM 200 families who were made to suffer the same fate as the Tenglesens' and the Miller's and the Lyons' because of that "fumbling of evidence". To make myself clear - he got 22 months in 1976 - he was released into the wild because the SS failed to take minimum initiative to pursue conviction of OBVIOUS rape tortures and very likely murders. So 1978 to 1983 - each and every victim who was picked up in the middle of the night by a police impersonator, or each victim whipped to death by a belt buckle, or each family member of every victim who could never sleep again, and so on - was VERY likely completely avoidable.I imagine that each and every family member and victim made to suffer would tend to agree with me about how avoidable all of this was.

All of this was to say NOTHING of the justice stolen from families, lets say the Miller family - and I can name for you likely 70 other victims. Whatever I can name took me hours of sifting through cases and connecting dots on the internet. I am not a cop. I have no special tools.

What I have - was that I cared. Families have not only had justice stolen from them by the SS not doing some of the most basic human decency by - lets say for example - creating a one person liason to facilitate communication between police forces/families in America and Canada while DBLN was living - 1983 to Jan 2011.

I have to believe that if it were your family - God forbid (and by "your family" I mean any person reading this post) that you would absolutely want the SS to do the bare minimum to see that justice be served - to hold DBLN accountable in some way - and if not that, then some minimum amount of closure were brought to the torture that a family member may have suffered from the not knowing.

The worse destiny for a parent would be to have your loved one - especially a child - kidnapped and then NEVER knowing what happened to that person. The worse thing imaginable! And the ss in a certain way partnered with DBLN to make this happen - and they still are today.

That's my lens.
 
Not taking any personal offense, thefirstman. I sense that you feel very strongly about this and I do understand.

But-- I did not think there were "victim photographs" found at that first arrest? I remember there was a *advertiser censored* film, some other stuff that sorta raised eyebrows -- but was not remembering that there was anything that was clearly likely evidence of personal assault. I may need to go back and re-study that, but in the meantime -- are YOU sure there were photographs of the nature you described found in the first "raid"?

I think a one-person liaison for LE/families, or even a team, is a great idea. Wish they would do it still!
 
Not taking any personal offense, thefirstman. I sense that you feel very strongly about this and I do understand.

But-- I did not think there were "victim photographs" found at that first arrest? I remember there was a *advertiser censored* film, some other stuff that sorta raised eyebrows -- but was not remembering that there was anything that was clearly likely evidence of personal assault. I may need to go back and re-study that, but in the meantime -- are YOU sure there were photographs of the nature you described found in the first "raid"?

I think a one-person liaison for LE/families, or even a team, is a great idea. Wish they would do it still!

Check the A&E documentary again - check the Michaud book - the Secret Service admits it themselves that in 1976 they found homemade *advertiser censored* of underage girls. They recreate this fact when the documentary shows agents breaking in on DBLN rape room - they recreated the simulation of homemade *advertiser censored* of girls being tortured with photographs attached to the wall above his rape bed.

In fact the SS agent Foos I believe - admitted to gasping and having a pit in his stomach when in 1983 the SS announced that they had picked up DBLN as the mall passer.

They ALL knew - they (The SS) admit. So it's irrefutable.

What was even more stunning was that he was released from Prison May 5, 1978 - he was kidnapping, raping and murdering May 27, 1978 - and executed 3 women in June 1978 in Virginia!

Look at the SS now - their is a scandal about their agents in brothels and womanizing and getting drunk in 17 countries. If they have time to do that they have time to pick up a phone and call a family that has been suffering for decades wondering what happened to their daughter/sister/mother/friend/aunt and so on.

People do what they want to do. The SS and the people involved did not want to bother with the mess in 1976 - and they were too humiliated to deal with the depth of the horrors that they were, by their own negligence, partner to in the 1983 arrest.
 
I am convinced that was him. The car shuffle. The vanishing from a mall. The town going on a massive manhunt.

The rupture of innocence for a whole community. A family suffering for a generation without any clue as to what happened.

She was on my DBLN timeline - but far from the first he got in Georgia.

(For clarity, since her name does not appear in the quoted reply you made to my question -- this was regarding Carlene Tengelsen, who disappeared from Macon, GA, in 1972.)

bolded by me in the quote: Unfortunately, the "massive manhunt" did not really seem to happen in Carlene's case; seems some may have wanted to brush her off as a runaway, though there was no indication she was likely to be one. A common enough scenario in the 1970s, I believe.

thefirstman, would you be willing to share your lists/timeline -- or parts of them -- here on the DeB thread on Websleuths? I'd love to see your Georgia timeline, for example.

I know you may have reasons you'd rather not -- a book in the works, or something. But I just feel that, at this point, about the only way many families/local LEs are likely to press the SS for information relating to cold cases in which Debardeleben may have been involved is if information/possibilities are kept out there where folks can see, learn and ponder. WSers could do a part in making that happen, IMO.
 
Yes I was referring to Carlene.

Here is my process about your request to bring what crimes I think DBLN did more public:

Here's a case that in my mind speaks volumes:

http://iowacoldcases.org/case-summaries/michelle-martinko/

Michelle Martinko - murdered at the newly opened Westdale mall in Cedar Rapids Iowa on December 19, 1979.

Murdered at a crowded mall at holiday time. The perpetrator was extremely calculated, preying on a victim in a way that for the time (1979) left no evidence. Perpetrator was cut so 30 plus years later DNA became available. He likely dripped blood from his cut in the parking lot.

All signs to me say that this was a DBLN kidnapping from a crowded mall gone bad. He likely spied her in the mall - maybe in the parking lot when she was first parking her vehicle. He then set out to take her - in her car. He likely tried his police ruse. She was not buying it and told him to put it where the sun doesn't shine. He likely tried to force her into the car - he was convicted of such a crime in a Connecticut - the motorist was saved by the presence of passing vehicle. DBLN in the Conn case tried to push her with his seated body into the car through the driver side door while she was sitting in the driver's seat.

In Michelle's case she fought like a demon - but DBLN could not let her scream - because he was in a mall parking lot - so he resorted to a knife - much less noise then a gun. He was either bitten or stabbed or cut in the process and left blood/and therefore DNA for future investigations.

Now I would be willing to make an educated guess and say that DBLN passed a bunch of fake $20 bills in around that mall and that part of Iowa in the exact time frame that Michelle Martinko was murdered. DBLN was out of jail 18 months by then and was busy murdering all over the map by then. He was also very active in passing fake money by winter of 1979.

Her parents were intensely distraught and fiercely determined to find the perpetrator of this crime. They were very public about their need to get justice and closure.

No connection was ever made between the very likely passing of fake money and the murder victim by the SS. So while this whole community in Cedar Rapids was crestfallen, haunted, broken-hearted - and all the while the Martinko family began the long, slow process of suffering in anguish, torture, torment of a brutal murder without justice - the SS got to completely not care and totally get off the hook.

The SS knew for SURE by 1984 that they were dealing with "the worse serial criminal in the history of America" (their words) - "likely the worse serial killer in history" (again paraphrase of SS own words). So why did Martinko's family have to suffer? Why were they denied justice? Her body was found in the parking lot of the mall!


Furthermore, take a look at how I was treated on the Websleuth Lyon sisters threads. Take a look at the Tedford and Stearne websleuth thread. Again people have their own agendas. I am far from convinced that the people on this website would be helpful in making a big difference in this. Some people responded positively - many people stuck to their own agendas of having to be "right".

In order for this to be broken open a surviving family member would have to stand up and demand that their local police officer stop at nothing and get them in to see the SS's evidence on DBLN. They would have to find their loved one in a photograph or through an artifact like sadistic trophy that irrefutably connects DBLN to their loved one. They would then have to feel the drive to call a press conference and seek to out the SS - not for the sake of retribution, although the SS have earned this in my opinion, but rather to make it public to all who might be suffering like they were. To burst the bubble of the collusion between DBLN and SS to hide his crime evidence from the world.

Most police forces that I call treat me like I am a waste of their time - the police forces, for the most part, do not care. And if they do - they hear me speak of the SS and the officers immediately close ranks - "how could the SS be sitting on evidence? They investigate financial crimes. - Do you know murder is not a federal crime? How could the SS be sitting on murder evidence? I have another phone call coming in." or "So your telling me you got all of this from a book and some documentary film?" or they pay lip service and pretend to care to get me off the phone. Some are honest and report that they are not paid to track cold cases only, and they have enormous real time crimes and therefore will look into what I am telling them when they can - likely never.

There are exceptions - 2 or 3 out of 30 or 40 - genuinely care to have there case resolved - but they too are intimidated by the SS. I offer them names of police agencies and officers that I know have sought and fought to get in to see the SS's evidence on DBLN. This salt of the earth type of police officer seemed to feel real concern and fear about even approaching the SS and the reality that they are pushing into the reality of what must be very important to the SS to hide from the American and Canadian public.
 
Firstman, I do understand that you believe there are other victims of this guy. It is highly probable IMO. I've seen many serial killers cases that the killer either admits to underkill or exaggerates the numbers that he's killed in an attempt to feed his narcissism and possibly his delusions of grandeur. Im confident that the numbers are much higher than LE believes on many of them.

I think it's awesome anytime some one gets involved in helping solve a cold case homicide or put a name to an unknown doe. It helps give closure to families and friends. Kudos.

I've known 2 people who are missing persons on the national registry.

Wendy Huggy was a friend of mine, briefly. We met when we both moved to Holiday around the same time and became involved in the same group of friends who liked to hang out listening to a garage band, go to the mall, beach, or skating rink. So although I only knew her for a couple months, I knew her more then those couple months because she was me and I was her. A teen of the 80's enjoying paradise of the Tampa Bay area. Make sense?

I will tell you that I only moved 20 miles from where I grew up in Dunedin, to live with my mom for a bit. So I know the area well and the people she may have come in contact with (including the weirdos and pervs) at the usual hang outs, including the mall where she reportedly was last seen in Clearwater. Sometimes I feel like the keeper of history in this area for my generation. I have been dx with a photographic memory and it's all in there.
With this said, I have my theory of what happened to Wendy Huggy and have 3 persons of interest myself. Two of them connected through the game room at the Mall which is only 1 of 2 places that would have been closing at 11 pm the night she disappeared. I knew these 2 pretty well and have seen that they both had issues personally and in their lives that could bring out something dark. So I don't believe in my heart that this was the work of this serial killer. I believe it is local.

Now you mentioned to me in an email Patty Action. I believe she was a stranger abduction and gave a ride to the wrong person from the bar she was last seen. It could have been Debardeleben or any of many serial killers that sought victims in this area in the 70's and 80's.
 
Well I called the police woman about Barbara Jean Barkley and DBLN.

Same as Kelly Bergh Dove in Shanandoah VA

or two different ones DBLN was convicted of one in NJ Nov 12, 1980 Maria Santini (likely not her real name) and again Delaware Nov 19, 1980 from a maternity store.

The Barkley case newspaper article suggested that this police woman cared - that she be telephoned.

Typical. She left her cell phone number on her regular answering machine. She called me back to tell me not to call her cell phone. Beyond that it took me days of calling her desk phone. It took me 10 to 30 calls to get through - no call back was coming - likely ever. The cop was just annoyed. This time I told her squarely - I cannot stand calling about these cases. What am I supposed to do? I think I might know something that could help. You, as a law enforcement officer have declared publicly that you want information from a person like me if I might have something - which I do - so who is wasting whose time here? She seemed to calm down a bit from here in the conversation - I guess she may worry about her total disregard for meaningful information may get back to the public.
 
Well I called the police woman about Barbara Jean Barkley and DBLN.

Same as Kelly Bergh Dove in Shanandoah VA

or two different ones DBLN was convicted of one in NJ Nov 12, 1980 Maria Santini (likely not her real name) and again Delaware Nov 19, 1980 from a maternity store.

The Barkley case newspaper article suggested that this police woman cared - that she be telephoned.

Typical. She left her cell phone number on her regular answering machine. She called me back to tell me not to call her cell phone. Beyond that it took me days of calling her desk phone. It took me 10 to 30 calls to get through - no call back was coming - likely ever. The cop was just annoyed. This time I told her squarely - I cannot stand calling about these cases. What am I supposed to do? I think I might know something that could help. You, as a law enforcement officer have declared publicly that you want information from a person like me if I might have something - which I do - so who is wasting whose time here? She seemed to calm down a bit from here in the conversation - I guess she may worry about her total disregard for meaningful information may get back to the public.

Thefirstman, Do you think DBLN was the perp in Mary Shotwell Little's case?
 
Thefirstman, Do you think DBLN was the perp in Mary Shotwell Little's case?

Yes - in my opinion this was his first.
If you look at his criminal profile the authorities indicate that they believed his first murder was 1965.
Several things point to his involvement: it was a low level mafia crew targeting a bank - likely DBLN brought the job to a "boss" and Shptwell was to supposed to help from the inside.
You have notes and ransom attempts - that's his MO. You have him driving her all over the place using her cc refit card at gas stations that's his MO.
Here are two more - he's sketched - Leota Camp Iowa 1067. And Dorothy Miller 1969 Iowa realtor - WOW!
 
Yes - in my opinion this was his first.
If you look at his criminal profile the authorities indicate that they believed his first murder was 1965.
Several things point to his involvement: it was a low level mafia crew targeting a bank - likely DBLN brought the job to a "boss" and Shptwell was to supposed to help from the inside.
You have notes and ransom attempts - that's his MO. You have him driving her all over the place using her cc refit card at gas stations that's his MO.
Here are two more - he's sketched - Leota Camp Iowa 1067. And Dorothy Miller 1969 Iowa realtor - WOW!

I think he was responsible for Mary's disappearance as well. So much of what took place smacked of his work. I posted as such in her thread recently. Families of suspected victims could rally together to bring the evidence back out on the table. An analysis of the photos of women that were on his wall must take place. MD must be re-examined. Doing so would help LE close many cold cases, and give families answers at long last.

I would like to hear more on your take on MD's involvement in Mary Shotwell Little's case. Particularly regarding the area in bold. T.I.A.
 
I saw a special on him once, in which the investigator stated that he no doubt in his mind DeBardeleben was one of the most dangerous criminals alive.

PURE example of a sociopath
 
This really hard. I need some time but I've spent my life and my career looking for him and I think this is him. OMG. I can't begin to say what this feels like 40+ years later. I will update soon.
 
My biggest question is: did this guy ever drive an MG Midget? This is the piece that does not fit? My potential kidnapper drove a green Midget MG from the 1970s. It had old NY orange license plates beginning with YK23, I think.
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