TX TX - Huntsville, 'Walker County Jane Doe', WhtFem 14-16, 91UFTX, Nov'80 #2 *NAME NOT RELEASED*

[aThousandYearsWide]

I agree. We have mulled this for years. It is very possible she was meeting an employee. It is also quite possible she was pen pals with a prison as well. Or her father was in prison. The employee angle was explored by LE, but how could they verify back then?

A prison pen pal is a good point. A pen pal may not know what she looked like unless she sent a picture. Also possible she decided to do a surprise visit without telling them she'd be coming, though less likely due to needing to know visitation information and times. Could it also be someone that lied about knowing her because she was (possibly) underaged? Like someone arrested for sex crimes against minors. A young girl visiting them would not help their chance of early release maybe? Just brainstorming. Another thing I thought of was did they check people released that day? What if a friend was arrested the night before and held over night. She wasn't aware of his earlier release due to the pre-cell phone era of communication.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

Regarding the discussion on if WCJD could have been 18- in 1981 she wouldn't nessarily would have had to have been to fall through the cracks. Some habitual runaways weren't reported in the last and final run away due to the family believing the last missing report was still open. I also have seen a lot of the family members believing they ran away to a better life and now are married with kids somewhere. Jimmy Reymer's sister and Tammy Alexander's sister said something similar. When it comes to wards of the state's as recent as 1992 was a girl's missing case unreported. 16 year old Shannon Aumock ran away from a group home that failed to report her disappearance. In 2011 she was identified as a murder victim found shortly after she disappeared. Something similar happened in recently identified Elizabeth Lamotte who ran away from a youth center at 17 in 1984. She wasn't reported missing until 2011. The center didn't report her missing. She aged out of system in 1985 and the case was dropped. She was found dead early that same year. An example of someone who aged out of the system that was once unidentified is Angel McAllister. Only relative she had was a sister and both grew up in foster care where she left when she turned 18.

Thank you Daisy6441 for answering my question I was just about to ask. It was if it was a prison or jail. Ellis unit being death row inmates.

Regarding WCJD's shoe choice.. I've always wondered about it. It makes me wonder of she originally was in a car with someone (like a boyfriend) and got in a fight with them and asked to be let out. Or she planned to hitchhike the whole way maybe?

 

[daisy6441]

Regarding the discussion on if WCJD could have been 18- in 1981 she wouldn't nessarily would have had to have been to fall through the cracks. Some habitual runaways weren't reported in the last and final run away due to the family believing the last missing report was still open. I also have seen a lot of the family members believing they ran away to a better life and now are married with kids somewhere. Jimmy Reymer's sister and Tammy Alexander's sister said something similar. When it comes to wards of the state's as recent as 1992 was a girl's missing case unreported. 16 year old Shannon Aumock ran away from a group home that failed to report her disappearance. In 2011 she was identified as a murder victim found shortly after she disappeared. Something similar happened in recently identified Elizabeth Lamotte who ran away from a youth center at 17 in 1984. She wasn't reported missing until 2011. The center didn't report her missing. She aged out of system in 1985 and the case was dropped. She was found dead early that same year. An example of someone who aged out of the system that was once unidentified is Angel McAllister. Only relative she had was a sister and both grew up in foster care where she left when she turned 18.

Thank you Daisy6441 for answering my question I was just about to ask. It was if it was a prison or jail. Ellis unit being death row inmates.

Regarding WCJD's shoe choice.. I've always wondered about it. It makes me wonder of she originally was in a car with someone (like a boyfriend) and got in a fight with them and asked to be let out. Or she planned to hitchhike the whole way maybe?

If she hitched the whole way no telling how long it would have taken her. If she had someone drive her it would have only taken a few hours to get from Rockport to Huntsville. The waitress said it looked like she had been sleeping in her clothes. The lack of a purse or mention of it bothers me. If she was used to hitchhiking then you would think she would at least have a purse if not a bag of some sort. I know at 15 or 16 years old I was carrying a purse everywhere even though it didn't have much in it. Even a day trip would require some food or drink and she would need money for that unless she was with someone who provided that for her. The waitress didn't say the girl ate or drank anything while she was there. You think she might have asked for water if she was walking all day.
I was curious if she could have left with someone that night. The owner of the gas station who first talked to her said she was dropped off by a blue car and left on foot from there. At least that is what I read. Maybe the car picked her back up or someone else picked her up.

 

[Alleykins]

The only thing about age that concerns me is she told the waitress she was 19.
This is my opinion, but if she were 18, why would she say she was 19? Would there be any reason or advantage to claim to be the one year difference?
If she were older than 19, what would the advantages be to claim being younger her real age?
If she were sixteen or younger, I can see her pulling that age out of thin air. That makes more sense.
Then, there is the possibility she was 19, in spite of the estimate.
It's worth noting that Marcia King turned out to be closer to her upper age range, but if iirc, her age range estimates varied from source to source.
ETA: Another possibility is she fabricated her age to thwart suspicion.

 

[daisy6441]

The only thing about age that concerns me is she told the waitress she was 19.
This is my opinion, but if she were 18, why would she say she was 19? Would there be any reason or advantage to claim to be the one year difference?
If she were older than 19, what would the advantages be to claim being younger her real age?
If she were sixteen or younger, I can see her pulling that age out of thin air. That makes more sense.
Then, there is the possibility she was 19, in spite of the estimate.
It's worth noting that Marcia King turned out to be closer to her upper age range, but if iirc, her age range estimates varied from source to source.
ETA: Another possibility is she fabricated her age to thwart suspicion.

The waitress is the one who said the girl told her she was 19 but that she didn't think it was true or that it was an obvious lie. The experts think she is 14-16 years old. Maybe she had a fake id or stole a sister or cousins id that said 19? I'm not 100% certain but I am betting you had to be 18 to visit someone in the prison without an adult.

 

[Alleykins]

The waitress is the one who said the girl told her she was 19 but that she didn't think it was true or that it was an obvious lie. The experts think she is 14-16 years old. Maybe she had a fake id or stole a sister or cousins id that said 19? I'm not 100% certain but I am betting you had to be 18 to visit someone in the prison without an adult.

That's a possibility, I don't know what Texas prison visiting rules were back then. Does anyone know?

OT:
I don't know about Texas, but the drinking age started changing in my state in the early 80s.
I recall it all to well because shortly before I turned 18, and I was getting ready to head out to the bars, it switched over to 19. Then when I neared 19, they changed it to 20. I think within a 5 year period, it crept up to 21. They grandfathered everyone except for 20 year olds when it switched to 21. I had 20 year old friends who were able to legally drink and buy alcohol for a couple of months at age 20 because their birthday was before June, when the new age of 21 went into effect.
Also, I wasn't able to use my sisters ID, even though we were close in age and could pass for twins. Everyone knew her about town and in the bars already (she was a cocktail waitress), and I knew I'd get nabbed, so I didn't even bother.

I'm not saying this is why WCJD may have fabricated her age, but it's something to think about.

 

[daisy6441]

That's a possibility, I don't know what Texas prison visiting rules were back then. Does anyone know?

OT:
I don't know about Texas, but the drinking age started changing in my state in the early 80s.
I recall it all to well because shortly before I turned 18, and I was getting ready to head out to the bars, it switched over to 19. Then when I neared 19, they changed it to 20. I think within a 5 year period, it crept up to 21. They grandfathered everyone except for 20 year olds when it switched to 21. I had 20 year old friends who were able to legally drink and buy alcohol for a couple of months at age 20 because their birthday was before June, when the new age of 21 went into effect.
Also, I wasn't able to use my sisters ID, even though we were close in age and could pass for twins. Everyone knew her about town and in the bars already (she was a cocktail waitress), and I knew I'd get nabbed, so I didn't even bother.

I'm not saying this is why WCJD may have fabricated her age, but it's something to think about.

Also if she had told them her real age she risked having the police called. Its possible she assumed someone was looking for her or there was a report of her running away.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

I just thought of this regarding claiming to be age 19. When I was 19 years old I apparently looked 15. I got it a lot too. I had a boyfriend that got a lot of slack from his friend's the first time I came over to their house, "what are doing bringing a 15 year old over to a house where we're all drinking?". They were all either 20 or over.

I thought about this too. The music video for Soul Asylum's song "Runaway Train" featured missing persons cases. I read an article about the recovered one's. Anyways one of them was a girl that ran away at 14 to live with her boyfriend. She was recovered 2 years later at 16. She had been claiming to be older and working in different places like restaurants. I wondered this though that if a situation like this happens but the couple breaks up. She wouldn't have many belongings especially if it's an a stormed out of the residence or exited the vehicle during an argument situation. I have seen several missing persons cases where the person was last seen in similar situations. This to me would explain the shoes at least. An abrupt judgement.

 

[daisy6441]

I just thought of this regarding claiming to be age 19. When I was 19 years old I apparently looked 15. I got it a lot too. I had a boyfriend that got a lot of slack from his friend's the first time I came over to their house, "what are doing bringing a 15 year old over to a house where we're all drinking?". They were all either 20 or over.

I thought about this too. The music video for Soul Asylum's song "Runaway Train" featured missing persons cases. I read an article about the recovered one's. Anyways one of them was a girl that ran away at 14 to live with her boyfriend. She was recovered 2 years later at 16. She had been claiming to be older and working in different places like restaurants. I wondered this though that if a situation like this happens but the couple breaks up. She wouldn't have many belongings especially if it's an a stormed out of the residence or exited the vehicle during an argument situation. I have seen several missing persons cases where the person was last seen in similar situations. This to me would explain the shoes at least. An abrupt judgement.

I had wondered if she got out of a car she was riding in and they drove off with her stuff or she was mugged along the way. Maybe she had someone she knew get her to Houston and she started hitching from there. I have never heard of anyone coming forward that says they picked her up. Either they were too scared to come forward, never heard of the case, or they had something to do with her murder.

 

[RookieInvestigator]

I think the ward of the state idea is plausible...From what I've read and seen on TV foster children move around alot...Perhaps she did have a relative at the Ellis Unit or a previous foster brother there...If your in prison and someone coming to visit you turned up dead (and you were up to no good) how likely are you to tell the prison you knew her...She may have hitchhiked with the man she was seen with and was attacked later....

I was also thinking she was made to go & ask for directions...In the witness accounts the UID always went into the business to ask for directions...You would think the driver would've gone in...

Also, in the Rockport Aransas Pass area a Naval unit was nearby...I believe Ellington military base had several military installations there in Houston....Did she hitch a ride to the area with a member of the military....I have veterans in my family & I'm not trying to shed them in a bad light...However, a few ex-military members have committed some horrible crimes...

 

[Alleykins]

Also if she had told them her real age she risked having the police called. Its possible she assumed someone was looking for her or there was a report of her running away.

I thought about that as well, changing her age to throw people off track, if they were looking for her, and to possibly avoid detection.

 

[Alleykins]

Someone (sorry I can't remember who) mentioned on the old thread the possibility the driver who dropped her off might not have left the area and gave her a ride to both places, possibly with the intent of taking her to the prison. I don't recall reading that any witnesses stated they saw her get into any vehicles (if I'm forgetting this, please let me know). So, I think it's possible the car she got out of didn't take off afterward. That could be why she had on the shoes she did, and it could be why she didn't have any bags with her (they were left in the car). Even if witnesses saw the car drive away, it doesn't mean car&driver left town or didn't come back and pick her up. It simply means she got dropped off.
OT:
My ex used to do stuff like that on occasion-take us places I'd never been, but he'd be familiar with, randomly run into someone he knew, then take off with them and leave me at people's houses and in bars, all by myself with people I didn't know. For hours.

 

[RookieInvestigator]

I thought I read that she was with a male both times....So it sounds like the 1st time she received a ride & got dropped off...She was then walking around I-45....That's the Texas Killing Fields serial killer (among others) hunting/stalking grounds...It's unclear if she received another ride from the male...

So she was going to see a friend at the Ellis Unit...Then what....Was she trying to help one of the inmates working on the prison farm escape or was someone getting released?? Maybe she was planning to visit a friend and was attacked before she made it to the Ellis Unit...

WIKIPEDIA

According to the first witness, the girl—appearing somewhat disheveled[6]—had arrived at the South End Gulf station at approximately 6:30 p.m. on October 31. At this location, she had exited a blue 1973 or 1974 model Chevrolet Caprice with a light-colored top, which had been driven by a white male.[20][15] This witness stated the girl had asked for directions to the Texas Department of Corrections Ellis Prison Farm.[10][23] After receiving directions, the girl had left the Gulf station on foot, and was later seen walking north on Sam Houston Avenue.[6][n 3]

This same girl was later seen at the Hitch 'n' Post truck stop alongside Interstate 45,[23]where she again requested directions to the Texas Department of Corrections Ellis Prison Farm, claiming "a friend" was waiting for her at this location.[24] In response, a waitress drew a map providing directions to the prison farm which she then handed to the girl.[15]This waitress informed investigators that she had suspected the girl was a runaway, and that in their brief conversation, the girl had informed her she was from either Rockport or Aransas Pass, Texas. The girl had also claimed to this waitress that she was 19 years old; when the waitress had expressed doubts as to her claimed age and further asked if her parents knew her whereabouts, this girl had reportedly replied, "Who cares?"[25][n 4]

 

[daisy6441]

I thought I read that she was with a male both times....So it sounds like the 1st time she received a ride & got dropped off...She was then walking around I-45....That's the Texas Killing Fields serial killer (among others) hunting/stalking grounds...It's unclear if she received another ride from the male...

So she was going to see a friend at the Ellis Unit...Then what....Was she trying to help one of the inmates working on the prison farm escape or was someone getting released?? Maybe she was planning to visit a friend and was attacked before she made it to the Ellis Unit...

WIKIPEDIA

According to the first witness, the girl—appearing somewhat disheveled[6]—had arrived at the South End Gulf station at approximately 6:30 p.m. on October 31. At this location, she had exited a blue 1973 or 1974 model Chevrolet Caprice with a light-colored top, which had been driven by a white male.[20][15] This witness stated the girl had asked for directions to the Texas Department of Corrections Ellis Prison Farm.[10][23] After receiving directions, the girl had left the Gulf station on foot, and was later seen walking north on Sam Houston Avenue.[6][n 3]

This same girl was later seen at the Hitch 'n' Post truck stop alongside Interstate 45,[23]where she again requested directions to the Texas Department of Corrections Ellis Prison Farm, claiming "a friend" was waiting for her at this location.[24] In response, a waitress drew a map providing directions to the prison farm which she then handed to the girl.[15]This waitress informed investigators that she had suspected the girl was a runaway, and that in their brief conversation, the girl had informed her she was from either Rockport or Aransas Pass, Texas. The girl had also claimed to this waitress that she was 19 years old; when the waitress had expressed doubts as to her claimed age and further asked if her parents knew her whereabouts, this girl had reportedly replied, "Who cares?"[25][n 4]

The killing fields are down south of Houston. Huntsville is about two hours north of that but there were several serial killers in that area at the time. HLL claimed he killed her.

 

[RookieInvestigator]

The killing fields are down south of Houston. Huntsville is about two hours north of that but there were several serial killers in that area at the time. HLL claimed he killed her.

Lucas and his friend were terrible....If they had interrogated him the correct way perhaps we would have a better idea of what he did....Which may have solved more MP & UID cases...I think he was enjoying the notoriety...

I thought there were 2-3 in the Houston area that were included with the Killing Fields victims...I follow a lot of DP cases and I'm a familiar with Huntsville because of executions...Not the area though...With the reputation of the city, I'm shocked anyone would be brave enough to commit a murder there....

I know there's a different thread for the Killing Fields but the gaps in years during the killings makes me think he went outside his normal area to attack women (the area probably had a lot of LE around right after each victim was discovered) or he was incarcerated...

 

[detective24-7]

The only thing about age that concerns me is she told the waitress she was 19.
This is my opinion, but if she were 18, why would she say she was 19? Would there be any reason or advantage to claim to be the one year difference?

Something that comes to mind when I've wondered this is, maybe she thought it would seem it was too obvious to say she was the exact age that would deem her legal... and to avoid bringing attention to it she said 19... so maybe she thought adding a year would make it seem more credible or non-suspicious? I don't know. I do believe the experts though and think she was on the younger end of the age spectrum being 14-16. She looks like a child to me in her post mortem photos.

 

[daisy6441]

Something that comes to mind when I've wondered this is, maybe she thought it would seem it was too obvious to say she was the exact age that would deem her legal... and to avoid bringing attention to it she said 19... so maybe she thought adding a year would make it seem more credible or non-suspicious? I don't know. I do believe the experts though and think she was on the younger end of the age spectrum being 14-16. She looks like a child to me in her post mortem photos.

Maybe someone told her to never claim to be 18? Older sister? More worldly friend?
I had to go to Huntsville today. I think they took down the Hitchin Post sign. I did notice what looked like it on the opposite side of the road so I don't know if they moved it or what. I also made a video on my phone traveling north from the edge of Huntsville to the 1696 exit. It says it took me about 3 minutes driving at 65 mph behind an 18 wheeler. I decided to pay attention to that area this time. No houses. At least not any I could easily see. There is one on the other side of the highway pretty far back from the road but I don't know if it was there at the time. The trees were probably closer to the road at that time too. It would be pretty lonely out there in the middle of the night.

 

[detective24-7]

Maybe someone told her to never claim to be 18? Older sister? More worldly friend?
I had to go to Huntsville today. I think they took down the Hitchin Post sign. I did notice what looked like it on the opposite side of the road so I don't know if they moved it or what. I also made a video on my phone traveling north from the edge of Huntsville to the 1696 exit. It says it took me about 3 minutes driving at 65 mph behind an 18 wheeler. I decided to pay attention to that area this time. No houses. At least not any I could easily see. There is one on the other side of the highway pretty far back from the road but I don't know if it was there at the time. The trees were probably closer to the road at that time too. It would be pretty lonely out there in the middle of the night.

Hmm, they did? I was over there just this weekend and I saw the Hitchin' Post sign from the road. The sign I saw was on the right side of the road heading North. I'm not doubting you, I just wonder if they barely took it down today.

 

[daisy6441]

Hmm, they did? I was over there just this weekend and I saw the Hitchin' Post sign from the road. The sign I saw was on the right side of the road heading North. I'm not doubting you, I just wonder if they barely took it down today.

Its not visible like it was. Maybe the letters were gone or something. I didn't see it coming in like I was used to.

 

[Alleykins]

Something that comes to mind when I've wondered this is, maybe she thought it would seem it was too obvious to say she was the exact age that would deem her legal... and to avoid bringing attention to it she said 19... so maybe she thought adding a year would make it seem more credible or non-suspicious? I don't know. I do believe the experts though and think she was on the younger end of the age spectrum being 14-16. She looks like a child to me in her post mortem photos.

I agree, she appears to be on the lower end of the age spectrum, IMHO. That makes the most sense for her lying about her age, IF it turns out she was lying about her age.