TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #2

[Roy23]

That makes absolutely no sense to me. Polygraphs are designed to to indicate deception or truth, not some gray area.

I think it would be best if you would let this sleeping dog lie. TS has basically given you answers out of the goodness of his heart.

 

[dashamarie]

Polygraphs are designed to record the physiological response of the subject during a question and subsequent answer. A trained technician is then required to *interpret* the response. Obviously there are known and accepted parameters for this interpretation, but everyone will respond differently to shock and/or stress. This is why some people are able to “game” the system. Additionally, if someone were to threaten the subject with a knife during their answer, for example, it could make a completely honest answer appear to be a lie. Therefore, polygraphs are not 100% accurate and do contain a lot of “grey area”.

The polygraph that is being discussed is not public record, and even if it were, only a trained/qualified technician could give an *opinion* on what the results mean. Anything else is merely speculation or hearsay.

 

[dodie20]

I'm sorry if I'm asking an old question, but I'm a little late to this forum. I live in Texas, so I'm familiar with this case, but I'm a little lost. Usually, in a case like this, I go with statistics, because kidnappers, serial killers, white slavery, are pretty rare. But with that said, that area has had its share of serial killers, through the years. This is my question...I know suspicion has been cast on an older sister, but have all of the other family members been cleared? Since the husband was the one who received that bizarre letter, I was mainly wondering about him. Does anybody know why he was already on his 2nd marraige? not to mention @ least one other engagement...to his wife's sister who was living in their house. Something's not right with that set-up. & she refused an offer to accompany them shopping. Does anybody know where the husband was that day? If this sister was involved, there is NO way, that she acted alone, & there is NO way that she convinced neutral friends to help her. No, if the sister was involved, then her help came from someone with a vested interest. That letter was obviously written so #1, someone could buy time, & #2, to plant the idea that they had willingly taken off & were o.k. Sounds like an idea from a very immature person. Another thing that bothers me are the bones of the 3 girls that were found, back in 1981? Have they been positively identified & accounted for? If not, with new DNA, I think they should be retested. Because what are the odds that a tip comes in & bones are actually found? Do the cops know the tipster? Also, does anybody involved in this case, have any connection to the area in which the bones were found?

 

[michiganlifer]

I think I remember reading in the past posts that Rachel's husband was at work. I know Debra was on here for a while, but I haven't seen her post in a long time. Texassandman and Rose know the family. Maybe they can answer your questions better than my attempt.

 

[dashamarie]

As a follow up to my earlier post, and just for general info, I thought some of y'all might be interested in reading this article reagarding use of polygraph equipment:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2935/how-accurate-are-lie-detector-tests

 

[michiganlifer]

I went back and read every post from the beginning and I really wish there were answers to some of the earlier questions that were asked of Debra. I also don't know whatever happened to the five suspects that LE was supposed to check into. I see that the DNA was "inclusive" for testing on the letter, stamp and envelope. It's kinda frustrating that 35 years have passed and these questions are still unanswered.

 

[Jdee]

In the last thread the black and white picture of Rachel up next to the larger colored picture of the unknown girl that someone posted... that really caught my eye and I keep going back to it. Does anyone here know how to overlay a picture on top of another to see if the features match up? Considering no one knows exactly when the unknown girl's picture was taken it is feasable to say that there is a possiblity it could be Rachel. I really think this needs to be looked at harder.

 

[Kodiak]

I had stumbled across this baffling mystery while researching the Lyon Sisters case, and soon found out that they could be related. Both cases are so sad, and very frightening. I really hope that this will one day be solved.

I also did some research on an unsolved serial killer case that took place in Florida during the summer months of 1975. 14 young women were found sexually mutilated. Some of them were last seen at shopping malls where their cars had been deliberately sabotaged with flat tires, or missing engine parts. Police theorized that when the victims' cars would not start, the killer approached them with the guise of helping them. After no avail, he would have offered them a ride. Police told shoppers during that time to be aware if their vehicle had flat tires, or wouldn't start, and to scream if a person approached them offering help.

Police theorized that there were similar murders in the western states that are linked to the killer, the same states where Ted Bundy committed his crimes. In August 1975, Ted Bundy was arrested for the first time, but I have found no info if he was in Florida before then. It was also never determined if some of the bodies in the western states were confused with Bundy's victims.

They also believed the killer traveled across the country, and was never in one particular area for a long period of time. It could very well be that this case could be related to the missing Texas trio. Perhaps, the killer upped the ante by sabotaging vehicles and disposing the bodies faster, and with less hassle. I am not sure if the other women killed in the western states were from other regions of the U.S. when found. In 1979, two of the Florida female victims (both found December 23, 1975) had not been identified. To date, one of those females is listed on The Doe Network: http://doenetwork.org/cases/295uffl.html

The other female is not listed, and perhaps has been identified since that time.

1 other female (thought to have been a January '75 victim of this serial killer), her case was solved when her killer was found, and her case then had no relation to this one. I also have not found any more info in these unsolved Florida murders after 1979. It has remained a very silent investigation since. The earliest victim was found in February 1975, and the last in January 1976 (ruling out Bundy). I have included some links to the case:

"On August 29, 1975, Dade County's assistant medical examiner announced his belief that one man was responsible for five recent murders of South Florida women. Homicide detectives were convinced of a connection in the July slayings of Ronnie Gorlin, 27, and Elyse Napp, 21, while the medical examiner's report named three other victims. Barbara Stephens, 23, had been abducted from a South Dade shopping mall and stabbed to death in February, while a pair of 14-year-old high school classmates, Barbara Schreiber and Belinda Zeterower, had been killed at Hollywood in June. At this point, Sgt. Erwin Carlstedt of Sonoma County, California, chimed in with his theory of a single killer, moving coast-to-coast with more than 30 unsolved homicides behind him. Florida investigators had no public comment on the theory, concentrating on their search for an elusive killer who deflates his victims' tires in parking lots, then charms them with an offer of assistance. At this writing, the Florida cases remain unsolved."

Source: http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/F/FLORIDA_unsolved.php

"The 8 Murders: Along the Canals of Dade and Broward Counties, The Deadly Puzzle Began" - The Evening Independent; Aug 6, 1975
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...&pg=6913,957147&dq=florida+canal+killer&hl=en

"Police Say Killer is 'Jack the Ripper' Type" - Sarasota Herald-Tribune; August 28, 1975
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=5019,5127133&dq=florida+ripper+killer&hl=en

"Police Seek Link Between Miami, Western Slayings" - Tri City Herald; August 29, 1975
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=4248,6714169&dq=florida+ripper+killer&hl=en

"Ripper Analyzed by Sex Offenders" - The Miami News; September 1975
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AIBAJ&pg=1064,3240825&dq=florida+killer&hl=en

"Who Killed Our Girls? Families Ask in Agony" - The Miami News; February 3, 1976
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=2923,1059325&dq=florida+ronnie+gorlin&hl=en

 

[Kodiak]

Also, serial killer, Gary Addison Taylor, could also be a prime suspect in the case of the missing trio. He is serving a 90 year sentence after admitting to the deaths of four women when he was captured in Houston, Texas in May 1975. Police claim he may be responsible for 20 unsolved murders in Washington State, California, Michigan, and Texas.

In a June 9, 1975 article from TIME Magazine, it states:

"Soon after his release, Taylor married. He and his wife Helen,
a secretary, moved first to Onsted, Mich., later to the Seattle suburbs.
Last December [1974] after separating from his wife,
Taylor settled down in Houston."

It was a known fact that Taylor was in Texas that December 1974, and from further research, he didn't wait long to commit his crimes when moving to a new area. Taylor told authorities that he hated women. Could the mysterious letter (possibly from Rachel) to Tommy, that mentions going to Houston, be a vital clue to linking Taylor?

TIME: "Freedom to Kill"; June 9, 1975
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,913122-1,00.html

"Taylor Gets 90-Year 'Minimum' Sentence" - Ludington Daily News; Aug 2, 1976
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...&pg=1894,2645417&dq=gary+addison+taylor&hl=en

 

[thefirstman]

I believe what caused Rusty to change his mind was Princess Rose and I digging up stuff on a serial killer that used to live in Ft. Worth, Mike Debardeleben. His parents lived not far from the shopping center, and he may have been responsible for some earlier disappearances in Ft. Worth. He moved away, but he came back to Ft. Worth shortly before his mother died.to supposedly care for her. More likely is he hurried her death along through neglect. This would've been the right time frame 1974 give or take a year. Debardelben's whereabouts went unaccounted for for several years, but he can be placed in Ft. Worth approximately around the time the Fort Worth girls disappeared. This guy was known to kidnap and torture some of his victims, and held at least one woman captive in his attic in Ft. Worth. He married at least 4 women, and battered two of them so much that they helped him commit his crimes. Another only stayed with him about a month or so before divorcing him.

Also, Rusty later spoke with a male poster on WS, someone who was working on the theory that the Lyons girls in Maryland, think that's the right state, may also have been abducted by Debardeleben as he was in their area as well. Actually PrincessRose and I picked up on Debardeleben from the Lyons girls' case. Debardeleben had known victims in Virgina too. As far as criminals go, Debardeleben started early, and was not limited by the types of crimes he committed. He was eventually caught, but not for his sexual crimes. He was caught printing phony money by the Feds. which he'd passed in numerous states. When they opened up a storage building where he had his printing press, is when they found out he was also a serial killer, and a sexual sadist at that. They found lots of photos of women. Truly disgusting guy, and one of the worst. Everyone knows of Ted Bundy, but really Debardeleben was much worse.

The male poster here who spoke with Rusty was finally able to convince Rusty that his sister had nothing to do with this crime. This crime truly shredded their family, and if Rusty and Debra are talking now, that would be wonderful to hear! They have all had so much pain in their lives, and Debra even more so by being accused by her brother. Sad, sad, sad. Rusty had never heard of Debardeleben until it was brought up here on WS, and our sleuther contacted him. I think Rusty then contacted Ft. Worth LE, and learned that they had also suspected Debardeleben could've been responsible. They just can't prove it due to lack of evidence, and the fact the girls bodies have never been found.

Some of Debardelben's crimes: auto theft, forgery, burglary, bank robbery, printing money, rape, sexual sadism serial killings. Heck of a nice guy--NOT! Debardeleben was known as the Mall Passer because that's where he passed his phony bills. So he spent some time in shopping malls. While in Texas, he passed phony bills in Dallas, but not Fort Worth, so he likely avoided Fort Worth because he was living there at the time.

That "male sleuther" is me. I spoke with Rusty many times. I am not clear that I "convinced" him that his sister was not involved. I believe I got his attention about the likelihood that DeBardeleben was involved. He contacted the Secret Service who took Rusty's requests for help in the case very seriously.

Rusty was quite responsive on many fronts. I will refrain from naming the particulars of our conversations because I promised him that I would, accept to say that much if not all of what "justthinkin" stated was highly accurate.

Rusty had not known or heard of DeBardeleben. The FW police had him as a top suspect. I also spoke to LE in Maryland about DeBardeleben as the perpetrator of the Lyon's girls crimes. Montgomery County Police also named DeBardeleben as "top suspect".

Overlaps in the two cases include, but are not limited to: 1. Multiple kidnappings (VERY HIGHLY) likely to have occurred 2. In or around open area malls 3. During holiday (peak shopping times) - Christmas eve, and Easter break. 4. Misdirection used by perpetrator (note to home of Missing 3 - Tape Recorder Man Lyons sisters). 5. Possible use of uniform(s) to help perp to commit the crime. 7. Kidnappings in broad daylight. 8. With no witnesses. 9. Whereabouts of all 5 victims involved have never been discovered.

Both locations (Wheaton Maryland, FW Texas) were known bases of crime operation for DeBardeleben.

DeBardeleben was left by his then 4th wife known as Caren (not her real first name) who was an Arlington County High School student when DeBardeleben met and convinced her to marry him in or around 1970 (at a church 3 miles from where the Lyon girls kidnapped). DeBardeleben's mother died in Spring of 74 (I believe) and was living in the house near the mall in FW so he had reason to be in that locale at that time, for closing down his mother's "estate". His wife left him in Sept of 74 and secured legal help in Northern VA (where her family of origin was living). If DeBardeleben committed the missing trio crimes, he likely could have left the FW area and went up to the Washington DC area and committed a similar type of crime 3 months later.

Please be aware that Maryland State Police uniforms were stolen from a dry cleaners in Baltimore in Feb of 1975 (just after the missing 3 case occurred). Information in the Washington Post archived article indicated that 3 uniforms were taken in a robbery. The article was about a man impersonating a cop in Sept of 75 on the I-95 corridor pulling over truckers and forcing them into "homosexual" acts. This impersonator (NOT DeBardeleben) was beaten by a trucker and then caught by the police. "Officer Rook" was about the same size and height as Mike DeBardeleben so those uniforms would have fit him as well. DeBardeleben could have used this/these uniforms for his Lyon sisters abduction, and sold them months later on the black market.

One thing is for sure - the police never publicly linked those stolen uniforms to ANY crime theory related to the Lyon sisters. All the while DeBardeleben spent the late 70's and early 80's perpetrating the most heinous crimes against women, in and around the DC area, while luring them into his vehicle with police impersonation ruses. If the police had thought of the Lyon sisters case as a possible police impersonation case at the time (1975) they would have been MASSIVELY neglectful to not have better warned the public. The police did the opposite as the Washington post article described above indicated in that the police moved to undercover traffic patrols which created much controversy at the time.

The Tape Recorder Man (TRM) showed up in area malls in the suburbs of DC in Feb of 1975. With possession of police uniforms, the missing trio crime under his belt, Debardeleben could have worked the malls as TRM with impunity and arrogance.

 

[Marilynilpa]

It is very interesting to think that the Lyon girls could be linked in some way to this case.

As I've posted on here previously, I was a senior in high school in Dallas, Texas when this happened. Dallas is about 45 minutes or less from Ft. Worth. My parents worried about me and my friends going to the mall by ourselves, so we had to call our parents from a pay phone once we got to the mall, and again when we were leaving the mall. I remember watching the news and thinking how awful it was that people could just disappear. Now I realize that it happens every day, but back then I had no idea.

 

[thefirstman]

It has seemed to me that not enough emphasis has been placed (especially on the Websleuth Lyon sisters discussion) on the meaning and significance of conducting a multiple kidnapping in a crowded mall at a peak holiday shopping day.

The crimes were multi-layered, not only in the misdirection ruses used by the perpetrator, but by the nature of committing a crime in front of all in the plain light of day. The crimes can be viewed through a lens in which the criminal was attempting to taunt the police, and maximally injure the communities and populace by enacting a crime that says "your young daughters are not safe".

It becomes in this way a crime against families, the police, the communities, girls/women and the very fabric of society.

In retrospect it is so obvious that a criminal could have easily done the same crime in more then one locale and LE in different communities never connecting the two. Also this was a time before serial killers were even defined as such. Police forces were territorial and refused to communicate with one another. Very little computer technology was available nor used.

Another layer that becomes painfully tragic was revealed in the DeBardeleben A&E special on him in which the Secret Service arrested him in 1976 for passing a counterfeit $100 bill in a Montgomery County mall (same county as Wheaton Plaza where the Lyon girls were abducted). At that time the Secret Service found DeBardeleben's counterfeit printing press (bought in Wheaton Maryland) in a hide-away house in Arlington, VA. They also found hundreds of homemade *advertiser censored* pictures including photos of "barely pubescent" girls who appeared to photographed and put in bondage against their will.

The Secret Service did not pursue DeBardeleben for any sexual predator crimes at that time (1976) which may have easily connected him to the missing trio and the Lyon sisters (with Wheaton down the street from the DC home office of the Secret Service). These agents lived and worked in the very community in which the Lyon sisters crimes were plastered all over the media, yet it may be that they let evidence slip right through their hands. This seems to be a somewhat typical scenario of crime investigation at that time.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Another layer that becomes painfully tragic was revealed in the DeBardeleben A&E special on him in which the Secret Service arrested him in 1976 for passing a counterfeit $100 bill in a Montgomery County mall (same county as Wheaton Plaza where the Lyon girls were abducted). At that time the Secret Service found DeBardeleben's counterfeit printing press (bought in Wheaton Maryland) in a hide-away house in Arlington, VA. They also found hundreds of homemade *advertiser censored* pictures including photos of "barely pubescent" girls who appeared to photographed and put in bondage against their will.

The Secret Service did not pursue DeBardeleben for any sexual predator crimes at that time (1976) which may have easily connected him to the missing trio and the Lyon sisters (with Wheaton down the street from the DC home office of the Secret Service). These agents lived and worked in the very community in which the Lyon sisters crimes were plastered all over the media, yet it may be that they let evidence slip right through their hands. This seems to be a somewhat typical scenario of crime investigation at that time.

I find this information very disturbing, i.e., the "barely pubsecent" girls apparently in bondage situations. It is hard to fathom why no sexual predator crimes were brought against him at that time, regardless of whether the Secret Service connected him with the Lyon sisters or not.

The Secret Service may have felt their only duty was to investigate the counterfeiting crimes, altough how anyone in good conscience could overlook those photographs is hard to believe. It seems local LE should have been informed about them, if nothing else.

 

[TechWriter797]

They also found hundreds of homemade *advertiser censored* pictures including photos of "barely pubescent" girls who appeared to photographed and put in bondage against their will.

I wonder if the Secret Service ever gave those photos to the FBI and if the FBI ever tried to compare the girls in those photos with missing persons? I would hope so, but maybe they didn't.

 

[thefirstman]

I find this information very disturbing, i.e., the "barely pubsecent" girls apparently in bondage situations. It is hard to fathom why no sexual predator crimes were brought against him at that time, regardless of whether the Secret Service connected him with the Lyon sisters or not.

The Secret Service may have felt their only duty was to investigate the counterfeiting crimes, altough how anyone in good conscience could overlook those photographs is hard to believe. It seems local LE should have been informed about them, if nothing else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHlezJ9evGI

Youtube link above of 1 of 10 of the A&E special on DeBardeleben.

Deeply disturbing it is. Please note in the show's description of DeBardeleben first counterfeit arrest (which I discovered was for passing a fake $100 bill in 1976 at a Montgomery County mall through a crime magazine article that I purchased because it tracked DeBardeleben's life of crime- may have actually been passed at The Wheaton Plaza - same place the Lyon girls were last seen) the Secret Service flick a light switch on in a second room in his printing press hideaway and film projector comes on and a *advertiser censored* movie is projected onto the far wall. Please notice the reported dozens of homemade *advertiser censored* photos discovered tacked to the wall above the bed in the same said room.

Further investigation into that room were reports that it smelled rank, and he had hand guns tucked under pillows and such.

Additionally DeBardeleben was tried (and clearly guilty) but released on a technicality of raping, sodomizing an underage girl (12 years old I believe) with another man in 1968 in Prince Georges County (PG). They reportedly coerced her into their vehicle and raped her with a soda bottle. PG county is another county that is officially considered a suburb county of Washington DC. A few miles from the Secret Service headquarters and borders on Montgomery County.

In 1971 he had lured a realtor into a secluded home under a pretense that he was interested in buying it and he murdered her in cold blood. Sketches of his face were made and his handwriting was on file at the real-estate office the day the women was murdered. Had the Secret Service done what was considered basic police work by today's standards they could have saved many, many people from murder and the agony of losing loved ones!

I believe that the Secret Service's drive to convict DeBardeleben of his sex crimes in 1983 (2nd arrest for being the "Mall Passer") was motivated by agents' guilt for not having done more during his 1976 arrest and convictions.

In time frame in question (1975-76 I believe) DeBardeleben opened a business in a part of DC that was dangerous and seedy called "The Camera's Eye" where any person could come in and rent a camera, a room and hire a woman and create their own *advertiser censored*. The police considered the place a menace in this troubled part of town and often had calls to tend to the place for illegal fire arms and endless violations. The place was closed down do to its problematic nature.

I believe that the Secret Service's neglect to properly put DeBardeleben away in 1976 was related to the fact that most police forces were mostly if not all male. Women and crimes against women and children were not given the kind of priority they are in today's America. Some serial killers were able to take advantage of this trend in police work. I could give many examples, but this 1976 Secret Service blunder is one the most very striking ones.

 

[Marilynilpa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHlezJ9evGI
I believe that the Secret Service's neglect to properly put DeBardeleben away in 1976 was related to the fact that most police forces were mostly if not all male. Women and crimes against women and children were not given the kind of priority they are in today's America. Some serial killers were able to take advantage of this trend in police work. I could give many examples, but this 1976 Secret Service blunder is one the most very striking ones.

I agree with you that the neglect of the Secret Service was probably due in large part to crimes against women and children being considered low priority.

Thanks for the youtube video, I will certainly watch it.

This case was already a distrubing one to me, and now that I've read your postings, it is even more disturbing.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I wonder if the Secret Service ever gave those photos to the FBI and if the FBI ever tried to compare the girls in those photos with missing persons? I would hope so, but maybe they didn't.

Obviously I have no way of knowing this, but I would bet that the Secret Service did not pass on those photos. Interagency cooperation was almost non-existent in those days. The various federal agencies were very territorial.

Unfortunately that remains true even today - the unfortunate events of 9/11 show that, had various agencies been working together rather than competing with each other, some tragic events might not have occurred.

In any event, this DeBardeleben guy was one sick man. Unlike many pervs we hear about, he didn't seem to have any particular age group or type of person he preyed on. Women, young girls, children - everyone seemed to be considered fair game to him.

I may offend some people by this statement, but here it is: I believe there is evil, pure evil, in this world. People like DeBardeleben, in my estimation, are not really even human - they have given themselves over so completely to their sickness that only evil exists within them. Abducting, raping, torturing, killing - this was his lifestyle, his "normalcy". That is evil.

 

[nanny2five]

i got sent home from work sick yesterday and i have been reading this thread all day yesterday until late last night then all day today. i am amazed by all of the work and thought that went into this forum. i started with the very first post in the thread that is now closed and read each and every post and most of the links. even did a few googles of my own. i have a theory formed from reading these threads from beginning to end. i will tell it, but remember that i am highly medicated right now and feel free to poke holes. ok, my theory begins with the security guard at the mall. the older one who said he saw the girls in the truck with a younger sg late at night. i dont think he saw that at all, i think he DID that and told the story to cha just on the off chance that his plan wasnt perfect and somebody saw him with them in his truck after he kept them in the basement of the mall until the family either left with the car or at least stopped watching it. iirc the police didnt really get involved until the next day when the letter was received. and i think that particular security guard was ex-le so he would have known how they would react, except he probably thought the letter would smooth it over and keep it a runaway situation for a while longer. iirc, he was wrong about that. the letter baffled me throughout but after a lot of thought i think it points to the sg. i think one of you genius's in that other thread explained it perfectly about him getting rachel's dl and matching up the name and address on it with the address in the phone book. heck, he might have even called information to get that bc iirc we did that a lot back then, usually to find out where cute boys lived i got stuck on why he signed it rachel, but then it dawned on me that he probably asked their names when he perpetrated whatever ruse to get them to the basement. he could have mailed the note before anyone started looking for them and then just waited for the right time to hand them off. my gut feeling is that it was julie they wanted bc the older girls were a bit old. i think they handed julie off to someone and then handed rachel and renee off to the gas station owner who passed them on to someone in houston, or not since the witness saw blood and fresh digging. to be cont'

 

[nanny2five]

i believe there are perverts in all walks of life. in every profession and every age group and every status. the ones who are high up in society, business or politics cant just go around kidnapping children, so they pay people a lot of money to do it for them. i do not believe its a vast conspiracy run by the government, but it is protected and sometimes people who talk about it die before they can say too much. probably why more people dont talk. there is a thread on websleuths "what happened to johnny geosch" not sure thats spelled right. there is a lot of information there if you read with the understanding that these sorts of things get exaggerated. some of it makes sense, a lot of it does not, in fact some is outrageous, but if you read it straight through you can sort of follow the thread and ignore what is obviously exaggeration. i think its a very good possibility that is what happened in this case. imo, jmo, mho and all that jazz

 

[tatertot]

News article and video: (Video at link)

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Families-Keep-Hope-Alive-in-1974-Cold-Case-104114388.html