TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #6

[beubeubeu]

What do you mean by “isn’t the fourth person usually sitting behind passenger seat, not behind the driver?” Meaning that if there are three people in a car the third normally sits behind the driver?

Meaning that if there are three (or four if three are in the front seat) people in a car then third usually sits behind the passenger seat, not behind the driver.

 

[beubeubeu]

Which podcast are you referring to ?

Gone cold. Confident voice says stuff like "oh, CA went for cancer treatment in Dallas on that day so..." Then in the beginning of the third episode: oh yeah guys, that was obviously incorrect. But then keeps telling weird details that contradict what verified insiders said here.

 

[Ozoner]

Meaning that if there are three (or four if three are in the front seat) people in a car then third usually sits behind the passenger seat, not behind the driver.

?

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I would probably sit behind whomever was shorter; whichever person was taller would have his or her seat farther back, which would mean less leg room for me.

If both the driver and the front seat passenger had their seats back equally far, then it would depend on which person I was more interested in taking to. Sitting behind the passenger would make it easier to talk with the driver; sitting behind the driver would make it easier to talk to the passenger.

Rachel was probably driving, and CJG may have been interested in Renee, so he might have sat behind Rachel (the driver) in order to talk to Renee (the front seat passenger). Or he might have sat behind Renee in order to have more leg room. Or he may have let Julie choose where to sit, in which case he would have taken whichever seat was left. It is really impossible to reach any conclusion on that topic.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

Gone cold. Confident voice says stuff like "oh, CA went for cancer treatment in Dallas on that day so..." Then in the beginning of the third episode: oh yeah guys, that was obviously incorrect. But then keeps telling weird details that contradict what verified insiders said here.

Gone Cold is one.of.the better ones, IMO. There is some really poor podcasts out there.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

From what Ive read, LE interviewed CJG/Virgil at least once before his death. So the nagging questions are, did he confirm being with the girls at the Mall? what was his timeline? Did he go in the A's car to the mall and back again? where and when did he last see them?

I would love to see that LE Interview transcript...

I would love to see thay transcript also !!

My understanding is that he originally stated to LE that he was with the girls then retracted the statement. Shortly after that he went back to California.

JMO, i do think he was at the Mosely house that morning. If the girls made if as far as the Mall, then I think he was probably with them on the trip. I think they parted company at some stage at the Mall. Again, JMO.

 

[beubeubeu]

?

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I would probably sit behind whomever was shorter; whichever person was taller would have his or her seat farther back, which would mean less leg room for me.

If both the driver and the front seat passenger had their seats back equally far, then it would depend on which person I was more interested in taking to. Sitting behind the passenger would make it easier to talk with the driver; sitting behind the driver would make it easier to talk to the passenger.

Rachel was probably driving, and CJG may have been interested in Renee, so he might have sat behind Rachel (the driver) in order to talk to Renee (the front seat passenger). Or he might have sat behind Renee in order to have more leg room. Or he may have let Julie choose where to sit, in which case he would have taken whichever seat was left. It is really impossible to reach any conclusion on that topic.

This

Meaning that if there are three (or four if three are in the front seat) people in a car then third usually sits behind the passenger seat, not behind the driver.

is no conclusion.

But I believe that's more likely possibility because:
- Left side traffic means that usually it's more convenient for second or third passenger to sit on the right.
- It's less distracting for the driver to not sit right behind them so to have spot behind them taken last.
- Oldsmobile had one big front couch, not single sits so leg space was likely same everywhere in the back and biggest in front.

I was just sharing my thoughts, not fighting over it.

What bothers me the most is when podcasters claim that gifts that the girls bought at the mall were in the car. It is well established that the only gift that was in the car was one that Renee had gotten for TT's son Shawn prior to the mall trip.

Actually, as we learned here - no. Renee was just wrapping that gift for him, it wasn't from her.

Gone Cold is one.of.the better ones, IMO. There is some really poor podcasts out there.

Being better than undigestable majority doesn't make anything worth considering as source of info.
They're mentioning CJG along with multiple wrong facts - while in cases like this even one or two wrong facts can totally change perspective.

 

[tilomagnet]

I would love to see thay transcript also !!

My understanding is that he originally stated to LE that he was with the girls then retracted the statement. Shortly after that he went back to California.

JMO, i do think he was at the Mosely house that morning. If the girls made if as far as the Mall, then I think he was probably with them on the trip. I think they parted company at some stage at the Mall. Again, JMO.

The whole CJG Episode is really a mess...how can he simply reject a statement like that he was at mall with the girls. And LE left him off the hook? Also if they parted ways at the mall, how did he make it back home? Im not saying he did it, but Im sure he knows who did and he was with the girls for longer that day than he has admitted to.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

The whole CJG Episode is really a mess...how can he simply reject a statement like that he was at mall with the girls. And LE left him off the hook? Also if they parted ways at the mall, how did he make it back home? Im not saying he did it, but Im sure he knows who did and he was with the girls for longer that day than he has admitted to.

Yeah, I agree. It seems crazy that he would change his statement so fundamentally and be let go so easily.

I don't think he did it either (although his meeting Rachel that day set events in motion, IMO).

I have no idea how he made his way home from the Mall. I think the situation played out pretty much as Ozoner laid out a few posts back, so I think it was highly unlikely that he was still with the girls at stage. If his home was on the route home maybe they dropped him off on the way ?

 

[tilomagnet]

Yes, in that scenario (which I agree is the most likely), CJG left the mall with the girls. But if LE ever figured this out, it means that the culprit could really not have been a stranger, because if the girls were killed after leaving the mall and dropping off CJG, why would the killer return the car to the mall? A stranger would most likely not even know they came from the mall and why would he risk dumping the car there and not either abandon it or dump it somewhere remote. This simple reasoning alone would bring the number of serious suspects down to 2-3 IMO.

 

[beubeubeu]

Yes, in that scenario (which I agree is the most likely), CJG left the mall with the girls. But if LE ever figured this out, it means that the culprit could really not have been a stranger, because if the girls were killed after leaving the mall and dropping off CJG, why would the killer return the car to the mall? A stranger would most likely not even know they came from the mall and why would he risk dumping the car there and not either abandon it or dump it somewhere remote. This simple reasoning alone would bring the number of serious suspects down to 2-3 IMO.

But - in this scenario - what about the scheduled meeting at the mall?
If they left with the CJG after doing some shopping or at least wandering around for some time, they should met those friends they supposed to do there. Also likely stumble on some school friends, neighbours... anyone who would be able to recognise them with confidence. Instead there is none of it. How it adds up?

 

[tilomagnet]

They were scheduled to meet someone at the mall? this is news to me honestly.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

They were scheduled to meet someone at the mall? this is news to me honestly.

They had arranged to meet friends at the Mall at 1.00pm, I believe. This makes me think that it is possible that the girls did not make it as far as the Mall that day. On the other hand, the sighting in the Record Store makes sense to me, so I can go either way on the that issue.

To muddy the waters even more, I believe their was a sighting of the girls at Rachels home on Minot Ave. at around 12.30pm.

Either way, I think whatever happened to the girls occurred sometime after this 12.30pm sighting. That's where the timeline runs out for me.

 

[beubeubeu]

They had arranged to meet friends at the Mall at 1.00pm, I believe. This makes me think that it is possible that the girls did not make it as far as the Mall that day. On the other hand, the sighting in the Record Store makes sense to me, so I can go either way on the that issue.

To muddy the waters even more, I believe their was a sighting of the girls at Rachels home on Minot Ave. at around 12.30pm.

Either way, I think whatever happened to the girls occurred sometime after this 12.30pm sighting. That's where the timeline runs out for me.

Sighting at the mall, with the info available is like most other details here - you can reasonably argue against the likelyness of it being accurate as well, as justify why it seems absolutely valid.

No sighting at the Minot then. Rachel's stepson's mother reported driving Minot Avenue sometime after noon and spotting the Oldsmobile on the driveway, not the girls.
And of course we don't know what kind of statement it was. And could be as well:
a) her going somewhere, at unspecific time between late morning and early afternoon, seeing similar car on the driveway or even the Oldsmobile before Rachel left and recalling that only after learning about girls disappearance,
b) her going somewhere, for scheduled meeting at 1:00 pm, knowing exactly that she left home 12:15 cause stared at the clock waiting for someone to come back home, then driving Minot with no distractions, having 100% confidence in recognising that car and taking mental note like "oh, that's odd, TT's car, I never saw any car in the driveway at this time of day before".
I guess that both possibilities would lead to a conclusion that there was a sighting, but the weight between a and b is very different.

 

[beubeubeu]

It's crazy how helpful it'd be to know if there was a changing room in the Army Navy store.
Cause it have't occured to me before, but it didn't have to be there.
And if there was no changing room there... but obvious proofs that Renee changed somewhere AND likely safely made it back to the car to put the old pair of pants into the trunk...

 

[Ozoner]

It's crazy how helpful it'd be to know if there was a changing room in the Army Navy store.
Cause it have't occured to me before, but it didn't have to be there.
And if there was no changing room there... but obvious proofs that Renee changed somewhere AND likely safely made it back to the car to put the old pair of pants into the trunk...

User @Parksestx shared some insights into that store:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...rth-23-dec-1974-5.413245/page-5#post-14727529

"Army Navy back then wasn't the standard military surplus store that you're thinking of. They had quite a selection of new clothes for the entire family."

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...rth-23-dec-1974-5.413245/page-5#post-14729261

"You’re quite welcome! My folks took us in that very store to buy clothing a few times for my sister and I. I don’t recall seeing any surplus military stuff in there! The 70’s were a strange time."

User @Beekarina shared similar insights into army-navy stores of that era:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...th-23-dec-1974-5.413245/page-23#post-16137870

"Where I grew up, the 'Army Navy' store in my town sold regular clothes too. It was more like a sporting goods store, along the lines of REI or maybe DICKS? While you could get military inspired gear, you could also grab jeans, a backpack for school an Izod polo or some sneakers. (late 70s early 80s, for context.)"

Based on those descriptions, it seems nearly certain that the army-navy store would have had a fitting room.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Hello, all. My first post. I've read through all the threads on this (I think), and was wondering-- did Rachel resemble her sister very much physically? Could they have been mistaken for one another, from a distance? Thanks.

 

[beubeubeu]

User @Parksestx shared some insights into that store:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...rth-23-dec-1974-5.413245/page-5#post-14727529

"Army Navy back then wasn't the standard military surplus store that you're thinking of. They had quite a selection of new clothes for the entire family."

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...rth-23-dec-1974-5.413245/page-5#post-14729261

"You’re quite welcome! My folks took us in that very store to buy clothing a few times for my sister and I. I don’t recall seeing any surplus military stuff in there! The 70’s were a strange time."

User @Beekarina shared similar insights into army-navy stores of that era:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...th-23-dec-1974-5.413245/page-23#post-16137870

"Where I grew up, the 'Army Navy' store in my town sold regular clothes too. It was more like a sporting goods store, along the lines of REI or maybe DICKS? While you could get military inspired gear, you could also grab jeans, a backpack for school an Izod polo or some sneakers. (late 70s early 80s, for context.)"

Based on those descriptions, it seems nearly certain that the army-navy store would have had a fitting room.

I vaguely remembered those, also tried to google for possible pics of Army Navy stores from that period and they seem just packed with stuff. On those few I saw - mostly military stuff or just different stuff (like mentioned clothes, hats, backpacks and some shoes).
Anything that could be changing room - what obviously didn't mean that it wasn't there, but I remember similar looking stores from early '90s Europe (so not exactly relevant experience) without changing rooms. And if they were there, then pretty close to the counter/wherever clerk had a good look.

But anyways, they likely weren't even looking for anything then. If Renee had something in layway, then she had to decide to buy it (try it) sometime before. So it should be even easier for clerks to remember, since it's bit unusual to change in new clothes right away. Especially if it was on smaller side (the store) - then theorising that Julie may be there as well are pointless (cause clerks would definitely saw her at some point). Unless it was one of the big ones and clerks weren't able to see everything inside.

 

[Ozoner]

I vaguely remembered those, also tried to google for possible pics of Army Navy stores from that period and they seem just packed with stuff. On those few I saw - mostly military stuff or just different stuff (like mentioned clothes, hats, backpacks and some shoes).
Anything that could be changing room - what obviously didn't mean that it wasn't there, but I remember similar looking stores from early '90s Europe (so not exactly relevant experience) without changing rooms. And if they were there, then pretty close to the counter/wherever clerk had a good look.

But anyways, they likely weren't even looking for anything then. If Renee had something in layway, then she had to decide to buy it (try it) sometime before. So it should be even easier for clerks to remember, since it's bit unusual to change in new clothes right away. Especially if it was on smaller side (the store) - then theorising that Julie may be there as well are pointless (cause clerks would definitely saw her at some point). Unless it was one of the big ones and clerks weren't able to see everything inside.

Remember that LE stood around with their thumbs up their you-know-whats for days or weeks once the letter surfaced because they fell for it hook, line, and sinker. I'm not sure how soon the store clerks were interviewed.

IMO, Julie probably waited in the car, either alone or with CJG (if they had picked him up before that).

 

[Chypre]

Sighting at the mall, with the info available is like most other details here - you can reasonably argue against the likelyness of it being accurate as well, as justify why it seems absolutely valid.

No sighting at the Minot then. Rachel's stepson's mother reported driving Minot Avenue sometime after noon and spotting the Oldsmobile on the driveway, not the girls.
And of course we don't know what kind of statement it was. And could be as well:
a) her going somewhere, at unspecific time between late morning and early afternoon, seeing similar car on the driveway or even the Oldsmobile before Rachel left and recalling that only after learning about girls disappearance,
b) her going somewhere, for scheduled meeting at 1:00 pm, knowing exactly that she left home 12:15 cause stared at the clock waiting for someone to come back home, then driving Minot with no distractions, having 100% confidence in recognising that car and taking mental note like "oh, that's odd, TT's car, I never saw any car in the driveway at this time of day before".
I guess that both possibilities would lead to a conclusion that there was a sighting, but the weight between a and b is very different.

I believe it was established that that ST's mother's police statement said they all entered the house. Rachel went in another room to pack up ST's clothes, while in the room she raised the music volume. ST's mother said the three girls were at the house when she left with ST.

Edited to add The verified insiders have the facts.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I understand the Trio's pictures are on several billboards. Just curious as to whether that has prompted any new discussion among the locals or produced any new leads. I realize that LE has info not made public. Like many others, I'd love to see some closure for "the innocents" (whomever and wherever they may be). "Fear is a terrible taskmaster".