TX - Longview, WhtFem (UP 9863), 41-50, Suicide - Assumed Identity, Dec'10

[Angie4b1g]

I really feel like that age estimate has got to be off. If that photo is 20 years old, and this person is estimated to have been 41-50 at the time of death, that would make her 21-30 in that photo. That person looks a lot older than 30 to me. At the very least, at LEAST 30.

 

[mamashawn]

I just had a very far reaching thought, but I want to share it anyway. Did she really commit suicide? Could she have possibly been a witness of some sort under the federal protection program? I know that sounds really far fetched but.... Something doesn't add up with this suicide story. Could she have been a law enforcement special agent of some kind? She has a very intelligent "official" look about her.

IIRC she pulled up at her ex or estranged husbands house for visitation with their daughter on Christmas Eve. She shot herself before getting out of the car. I'll see if I can find a resource for that...

I think that the pressure was on her to produce a valid SSN because she would have to have one for her daughter to get her own. Her inability to produce one probably let the cat out of the bag.

 

[pjclover]

I really feel like that age estimate has got to be off. If that photo is 20 years old, and this person is estimated to have been 41-50 at the time of death, that would make her 21-30 in that photo. That person looks a lot older than 30 to me. At the very least, at LEAST 30.

I believe that we were working under the assumption that this photo was an actual photo taken closer to 2000 or 2010 as opposed to 1990, and that the description was wrong. There were a couple of reasons:

1. The photo looks newer - like a digital driver's license picture that wouldn't have been in use in 1990.

2. The style of sweater looks more modern than 1990, as does the hairstyle.

3. We've seen actual photos of this woman, beyond what was posted in NamUs, and they were all taken recently (last 5 years or so) and look just like this one.

4. The age of Longview Doe just doesn't allow this picture to have been taken 20 +years ago. She would have been much younger, like you said.

 

[deca]

IIRC she pulled up at her ex or estranged husbands house for visitation with their daughter on Christmas Eve. She shot herself before getting out of the car. I'll see if I can find a resource for that...

I think that the pressure was on her to produce a valid SSN because she would have to have one for her daughter to get her own. Her inability to produce one probably let the cat out of the bag.

Her daughter was already over 2 years old IIRC, and these days you apply for the SS stuff in the hospital after delivery. I just wrote down my number and my husbands- they don't check cards or whatever. Anyways, she had been using a SS for some time (at least 15 years) so I don't think having to put one down on the daughter's application would have fazed her. JMO of course.

 

[Magnum P.E.]

If the daughter was adopted, that would open up a possibility that has not been discussed here yet.
Just from looking at the few pix we have, she TOWERS over other women. 5'10" may be conservative, she may be closer to 6 feet. Her large hands have been noted by one poster.

She seems to have no existence whatsoever before 1988. LOOK CAREFULLY AT HER PICTURE.

What if she were, in fact, born male?

 

[Donjeta]

What if she were, in fact, born male?

If they did an autopsy they would know that I think.

 

[webnut]

Do we know why she did not have custody of the child, I take it that is what is meant if she was visiting the husband and child the day she killed herself.

 

[Magnum P.E.]

If they did an autopsy they would know that I think.

Of course, but there is precious little info that they have released about this case. I have not seen an autopsy report.

 

[Donjeta]

Yeah, there is not a whole lot of info but I think if the investigators knew that one of their unidentified was transgendered they probably would put that in the profile. Otherwise creating a Namus profile would be kinda pointless since it will only generate false leads if the missing person was known as a male at the time.

 

[Magnum P.E.]

Look at the picture which shows her at a table, you have a clear view of her feet. Compare them to those of the woman sitting next to her. Not to be rude, but I can't even imagine where one gets woman's shoes that big. I wear men's 11, and her feet look as big as mine.

Is it yet clear whether the SSN was issued to HER in 1988, or was it issued to someone else?
I am inclined to believe the first case. I did not think that the old "paper chase" game worked by that time. But once you have a birth certificate, SSN, and driver's license, you effectively are that person. And if you stay out of trouble the chances of detection are slim. Had she not chosen to exit the world in the manner she did, it might never have come to light at all. And we still don't know EXACTLY what prompted the SS to investigate. What did not pass the sniff test in this case, I wonder?

 

[Magnum P.E.]

Yeah, there is not a whole lot of info but I think if the investigators knew that one of their unidentified was transgendered they probably would put that in the profile. Otherwise creating a Namus profile would be kinda pointless since it will only generate false leads if the missing person was known as a male at the time.

Husband is prominent in the community, maybe LE did NOT release that. I live in a small town and I surely would not want it known if my wife were born male.

Of course, when we run out of explanations on Websleuths there are two that inevitably come up; 1) If the UID is male, he is from an Amish sect and left for Rumspringa and never returned. 2) If the UID is female, she escaped from one of the splinter LDS groups or a cult and never returned.

If she was TG, then either could apply (he said facetiously)...

It really might be worth it to look for missing MALES from the 1987-88 period. To change gender would be the perfect way to hide.

 

[Donjeta]

If they wanted to protect the family from discomfort they didn't have to create a Namus page at all if they're going to input false info in it; even knowing that she wasn't who she said she was could cause some sensation in a small town.

FWIW, they've marked "No other distinctive body features".

 

[deca]

Yeah, I highly doubt she is male and for what it is worth- I have known at least a dozen women that are over 5 ft 10 and some over 6 ft. They all wear large shoes- around 11 or so. Most shoe stores nowadays carry up to an 11. You all get points for thinking outside of the box, though.

As far as the paper chase-
When I started looking into this case I started checking out SS investigations and fraud. According to a few things I read it was possible to get away with the paper chase method until the mid 90s. Around that time, the ss field offices weren't all connected (Or something like that, I don't remember all of it) and they didn't check for duplicates as well.
Even now, they have cases of duplicates or even 12 people using the same number. It still takes years to discover and investigate this, to the frustration and fear of the holder of the original ID. So it still happens even in this modern era.

 

[Magnum P.E.]

Yeah, I highly doubt she is male and for what it is worth- I have known at least a dozen women that are over 5 ft 10 and some over 6 ft. They all wear large shoes- around 11 or so. Most shoe stores nowadays carry up to an 11. You all get points for thinking outside of the box, though.

As far as the paper chase-
When I started looking into this case I started checking out SS investigations and fraud. According to a few things I read it was possible to get away with the paper chase method until the mid 90s. Around that time, the ss field offices weren't all connected (Or something like that, I don't remember all of it) and they didn't check for duplicates as well.
Even now, they have cases of duplicates or even 12 people using the same number. It still takes years to discover and investigate this, to the frustration and fear of the holder of the original ID. So it still happens even in this modern era.

Hmm, and those women with size 11 shoes, are any named RuPaul?
Seriously, I would never have anything to do with a woman who 1) has feet as big as mine (11E), or 2) has as many or more personalities than she had eyebrows. Just my personal policy.

Paper Chase... For those who do not know what we are talking about, I remember seeing a segment on a news show as a kid, back in the late 60s when the Paper Chase was becoming popular, there was a hippie type guy who would go to a graveyard, get the name of someone who died in infancy, obtain a birth certificate, use that to obtain a SSN, buy a ton of travelers checks, spend them and claim they had been stolen, get replacement checks and spend those too. Then repeat with a new identity. I wonder how many identities he spoiled for others who came later to that same graveyard!
LR may have done something like that, minus the malicious part. I wonder why? And when someone takes on a fake identity, lets face it, usually they revert to their old ways and end up in trouble again. LR didn't. She was established in her community, she had a business, family, friends, and belonged to a church. Was it all going to come unraveled as a result of the divorce?

 

[deca]

I should add here for anyone new to the case: Longview Jane Doe had stolen (or been given) an identity of another woman who IIRC is still alive and around the same age as Longview.

So, it might be one of the other paper chase methods- but not the "getting a name from a gravestone" method.*

Can someone else who has been on this case for awhile confirm for me that the original holder is/was still around? I think this is why they haven't and why we don't use her fake name- out of respect for original ID holder.

* Another method was to call up SS and claim that you are person X, give them X's info and say you lost your ID. They don't make it that easy anymore for obvious reasons.

 

[Txstrace]

Have we established that the husband is prominent? I've lived in Longview for 25 years and both parents were born and raised here and the name strikes no bells for any of us.

 

[Donjeta]

An extreme long shot:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/farni_christie.html
She looks a little similar imo. She might have been abducted by family or a foster family so it might explain a false ID. Her DOB and the DOB LR used are both the 18th. She has family ties to Arizona and according to the obit LR was from Scottsdale AZ.

But she has a burn scar in her chest that is not noted in LR and is probably too young. She would have been 18 in 1990 and I think the photo that was taken in 1990 looks older than that.

 

[pjclover]

A couple of point for clarification:

1. IIRC, the circumstances surrounding Longview's suicide (on her way to/home from a visit with her daughter) weren't something that has been confirmed, but rather something that an early poster heard from someone who heard from someone type of deal. We don't know if the suicide was related to her divorce, custody issues, her identity, or anything for that matter.

2. There is someone in Longview with the same name as Longview Doe's married name, which is not the same name that she applied for the SSN back in 1988 with. That further complicates things when searching for information on her, but it doesn't indicate that Doe stole this woman's identity. If memory serves, we don't know if she lifted a name from someone, or if she invented it because she liked the sound of it. All we know is that she applied for an SSN with the name, which has - somehow- proven to be a false identity.

3. I don't know if the family was well-known, but they were business owners with strong roots in the town going back to at least Longview Doe's in-laws generation. To further complicate things again, the other woman with the same married name as Doe also comes from a family of business owners with Longview roots.

4. I don't know about Doe being born a man. There is so much that we don't know about her that nothing would shock me, but I agree that it would probably be something that was mentioned in NamUs. She did have her daughter later than some women, and further into her marriage than many women, but I didn't see any indication that she was adopted. At this point there are so many unknowns that any theory works on the surface!

I should also add that we don't know *when* her identity was confirmed false - before or after her death. As a result, we don't know what part of her obituary - if any - is accurate in terms of Arizona roots, education, etc.

 

[Buckeye lady]

An extreme long shot:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/farni_christie.html
She looks a little similar imo. She might have been abducted by family or a foster family so it might explain a false ID. Her DOB and the DOB LR used are both the 18th. She has family ties to Arizona and according to the obit LR was from Scottsdale AZ.

But she has a burn scar in her chest that is not noted in LR and is probably too young. She would have been 18 in 1990 and I think the photo that was taken in 1990 looks older than that.

One of those pictures of her where she is sitting down looks like she had burn scars on her legs. I also wonder if she could be an illegal immigrant from Mexico although they are usually short in stature. I know they can buy illegal Social Security cards.

 

[CherBearSTL]

I'm not sure, but has Bertha Burkholder been considered?
http://doenetwork.org/cases/2936dfva.html
Age, height, eye and hair color all match. The only concern is that she was last seen on 12/27/1992. Is we are to believe that the namus photo was taken in 1990, which I do not, then this couldn't be her. This is the only pic available, but her smile really stood out as being a close match.

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