TX TX - President John F. Kennedy, 46, Dallas, 22 Nov 1963

[Dark Knight]

It's the mystery of the 20th Century, who killed JFK? Did the murdered Dallas Police officer have a role in it? Here is a VERY interesting investigation into the timeline that day for Dallas Police Officer Tippit, who was later believed to be murdered by Lee Harvey Oswald: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm

My opinion? Oswald was the lone gunman. All theories about places for a second gunman to shoot from were recently disproved in a Discovery Channel investigation. ABC World News Tonight also did an investigation and found that the Warren Comission was correct. And as for shooting FROM the grassy knoll, I don't think so! Most everyone on the ground seemed to know about the shots coming from the Book Depository 6 stories up and quite a ways away, but NO one noticed someone shooting a rifle from a grassy knoll right there on the street with people all around???? That defies all logic. Was he put up to it by someone else? I think so. Most likely a Mob hit. Was Officer Tippit involved? He sure acted suspiciously, that day, and maybe Oswald had to silence him, just like Ruby had to silence Oswald (and that is typical Mob practice, not only kill the person, but then kill the people who killed the person, to ensure no one was around as a witness.) And they likely also killed Monroe. But, did someone put them up to it, or did they do it on their own? I look forward to reading the various theories, and maybe we can fill each other in on things we have heard that others might not have. Take it away, Sleuthers!!!!

 

[Gabby]

It's the mystery of the 20th Century, who killed JFK? Did the murdered Dallas Police officer have a role in it? Here is a VERY interesting investigation into the timeline that day for Dallas Police Officer Tippit, who was later believed to be murdered by Lee Harvey Oswald: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm

My opinion? Oswald was the lone gunman. All theories about places for a second gunman to shoot from were recently disproved in a Discovery Channel investigation. ABC World News Tonight also did an investigation and found that the Warren Comission was correct. And as for shooting FROM the grassy knoll, I don't think so! Most everyone on the ground seemed to know about the shots coming from the Book Depository 6 stories up and quite a ways away, but NO one noticed someone shooting a rifle from a grassy knoll right there on the street with people all around???? That defies all logic. Was he put up to it by someone else? I think so. Most likely a Mob hit. Was Officer Tippit involved? He sure acted suspiciously, that day, and maybe Oswald had to silence him, just like Ruby had to silence Oswald (and that is typical Mob practice, not only kill the person, but then kill the people who killed the person, to ensure no one was around as a witness.) And they likely also killed Monroe. But, did someone put them up to it, or did they do it on their own? I look forward to reading the various theories, and maybe we can fill each other in on things we have heard that others might not have. Take it away, Sleuthers!!!!

DK If I can tear myself away from Laci Forum and the Parking Lot, I will be here tonight after reading your link.... Gabs

 

[Dark Knight]

DK If I can tear myself away from Laci Forum and the Parking Lot, I will be here tonight after reading your link.... Gabs

The timeline is quite long, so that's fine. You are having too much fun in the parking lot, anyways, lol! I'll be popping in and out at times yet to be determined, hehe.

 

[Gabby]

The timeline is quite long, so that's fine. You are having too much fun in the parking lot, anyways, lol! I'll be popping in and out at times yet to be determined, hehe.

Drop in the Bar and Grille and have a cyber drink on me!!!!!

 

[Gabby]

DK

Very interesting article....

I want to read more on the site before I comment though...

TIme to go to work :-(



gabs

 

[Richard]

J. D. TIPPIT (1924-1963) *Killed in line of duty, Nov. 22, 1963*

- J. D. Tippit was the Dallas policeman murdered on November 22, 1963, 45 minutes after the shooting of JFK. Tippit's murder was immediately pinned on Lee Harvey Oswald.

- Jefferson Davis Tippit, police officer, was born in Clarksville, Red River County, Texas, on September 18, 1924, to Edgar Lee and Lizzie Mae (Rush) Tippit. He attended public schools through the tenth grade and during World War II and served as a volunteer in the Seventeenth Airborne Division of the United States Army from July 21, 1944, to June 30, 1946.

- On December 26, 1946, he married Marie Frances Gasaway in Clarksville, moved with her to Dallas, and went to work for the Dearborn Stove Company. He worked in the installation department at Sears, Roebuck and Company from March 1948 to September 1949, when he resigned and moved to the farming community of Lone Star, where he attempted to raise cattle. Listing "general farming" as his course of training, he attended a Veterans Administration vocational training program at Bogata, Texas, from January 1950 to June 1952, and then withdrew to move again to Dallas.

- After working for a while as a carpenter's helper and doing odd jobs for a steel company, Tippit joined the Dallas Police Department as a patrolman on July 28, 1952. His usual assignment was day patrol in Oak Cliff, and he did some off-duty work to supplement his income. In 1956 he was cited for bravery for his role in disarming a fugitive from justice.

- Tippit was allegedly killed by Lee Harvey Oswald, the afternoon of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, on November 22, 1963, after stopping Oswald for questioning on an Oak Cliff street. His funeral took place the same day that funerals for John Kennedy and Oswald took place.

- In January 1964 he was awarded posthumously the Medal of Valor from the National Police Hall of Fame and in June of that year was given the Police Medal of Honor, the Police Cross, and the Citizens Traffic Commission Award of Heroism.

 

[Richard]

Most of the evidence seems to implicate Lee Harvey Oswald in the murder of President John Kennedy. Oswald worked at the Book Depository Building, he owned the rifle found there, at least one bullet found at Parkland Hospital had been fired from that rifle, Oswald fled the scene and murdered a Police Officer and tried to kill another one in his attempt to escape.
There are, and will probably be as many conspiracy theories as there are students of that "crime of the century". Each of those theories has valid questions and points, but they tend to pick and choose the "evidence" that fits their theory and tend to flatly ignore other accepted facts.
Oswald was a strange duck, no matter how you look at him - a real enigma of a guy. Most conspiracy theories involve him in some way- either as the Lone Nut assassin, as part of a larger team, or as a Patsy or Fall Guy.
The really hard part of the whole story is the number of shots fired and the timing of those shots and how all the eyewitness testimony is so seemingly contradictory. Some say that one guy just could not shoot three (or more) bullets in just over six seconds, hitting the target two out of three times. And this feat is accomplished with a cheap, clumsey bolt action rifle of WW II Italian make.
In 1967, CBS decided to run a test to see if Oswald's alleged shooting feat could be repeated. Eleven marksmen were selected and the shooting was done at H. P. White Ballistic Laboratory in Bel Air, MD. Several shooters were able to duplicate the Warren Report's conclusion of Oswalds shooting, while only one man was able to better it. That man was a Baltimore resident named Howard Donahue.
Donahue had his 15 minutes of fame for his shooting skills that day, but even though he had helped to "Prove that it could be done", he began to study the Kennedy Assassination in great depth. The more he studied, the more he felt that something was not quite right. Unlike most other students of the crime, Donahue studied the ballistics in great detail, and was one of the first to see the autopsey photos. His conclusion was that the angle of the final head shot, the type of bullet, and other factors did not support a conclusion that it came from Oswald's rifle.
Donahue co-authored a book, "Mortal Error" with Bonar Menninger. The book is a fascinating one and comes to the conclusion/theory that one of the Secret Service men in the follow up car may have accidently fired a round from an AR-15 rifle during the assassination, and that it was a bullet from that rifle that hit Kennedy. The book is well researched and actually is the best analysis of the assassination ballistics that I have read.
Most conspiracy buffs dismissed Donahue's theory out of hand, because it does not support their pet theories. They scoff at the thought of something as coincidental as a firearms accident occurring. But when one considers the possibility of that happening, the government's investigation and actions following the assassination begin to make sense in a different sort of way.

 

[Dark Knight]

Most of the evidence seems to implicate Lee Harvey Oswald in the murder of President John Kennedy. Oswald worked at the Book Depository Building, he owned the rifle found there, at least one bullet found at Parkland Hospital had been fired from that rifle, Oswald fled the scene and murdered a Police Officer and tried to kill another one in his attempt to escape.
There are, and will probably be as many conspiracy theories as there are students of that "crime of the century". Each of those theories has valid questions and points, but they tend to pick and choose the "evidence" that fits their theory and tend to flatly ignore other accepted facts.
Oswald was a strange duck, no matter how you look at him - a real enigma of a guy. Most conspiracy theories involve him in some way- either as the Lone Nut assassin, as part of a larger team, or as a Patsy or Fall Guy.
The really hard part of the whole story is the number of shots fired and the timing of those shots and how all the eyewitness testimony is so seemingly contradictory. Some say that one guy just could not shoot three (or more) bullets in just over six seconds, hitting the target two out of three times. And this feat is accomplished with a cheap, clumsey bolt action rifle of WW II Italian make.
In 1967, CBS decided to run a test to see if Oswald's alleged shooting feat could be repeated. Eleven marksmen were selected and the shooting was done at H. P. White Ballistic Laboratory in Bel Air, MD. Several shooters were able to duplicate the Warren Report's conclusion of Oswalds shooting, while only one man was able to better it. That man was a Baltimore resident named Howard Donahue.
Donahue had his 15 minutes of fame for his shooting skills that day, but even though he had helped to "Prove that it could be done", he began to study the Kennedy Assassination in great depth. The more he studied, the more he felt that something was not quite right. Unlike most other students of the crime, Donahue studied the ballistics in great detail, and was one of the first to see the autopsey photos. His conclusion was that the angle of the final head shot, the type of bullet, and other factors did not support a conclusion that it came from Oswald's rifle.
Donahue co-authored a book, "Mortal Error" with Bonar Menninger. The book is a fascinating one and comes to the conclusion/theory that one of the Secret Service men in the follow up car may have accidently fired a round from an AR-15 rifle during the assassination, and that it was a bullet from that rifle that hit Kennedy. The book is well researched and actually is the best analysis of the assassination ballistics that I have read.
Most conspiracy buffs dismissed Donahue's theory out of hand, because it does not support their pet theories. They scoff at the thought of something as coincidental as a firearms accident occurring. But when one considers the possibility of that happening, the government's investigation and actions following the assassination begin to make sense in a different sort of way.

Now THIS is a theory I have never heard before!!! I am not sure I buy into it, but it is a VERY interesting theory! Thanks for sharing it!

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I've always been very interested in the Kennedys because my mother was such a big admirer. However, being only about a month old when he died, I think that everything now is hearsay and I don't really trust any of it. Its hard to get behind an investigation or want to get involved when you don't really trust any of the sources of information.

 

[Mickeymouse523]

Before I say anything I want to say that everythign I say is just my opinion that I have come to after researching this case. I was not alove when Kennedy was shot so everything that I have learned has been from books that I have read.


1. I believe that vice president LBJ played a big role in this murder and cover-up. WHY? 1. Because he knew JFk was going to drop him off the 64 election ballot and he also knew that if he was droppped he would never become preseident himself, which is the only reason he became Kennedy's VP. 2. He flat out hated the Kennedy's becuas eof all their money.

2. I do not believe that LHO fired the fatal head shot. But, I do believe that he was involved and knew that he was going to be arrested. WHY? 1. There is no way that the shot that killed Kennedy came from the TSBD. 2. Based on his reaction following his arrest I think he was involved, I cant really pinpoint on reason, I just feel that he was. 3. The Moorman photograph, after enhancement it shows a man on the Grassy Knoll firing a rifle, this person has become known as Badgeman, as he appears to be wearing a Dallas Police Officer Uniform.

3. I think that the Warren Commission did a horrible job onvestigating the murder. WHY? 1. Johnson urged them to finish before the 64 election so it would look good for his reelection campaign. 2. They left out important information from eye witnesses. 3. the whole single/magic bullet joke, this is the one that got me.

4. I think that there was a conspiracy that like i said previously involved Lyndon Johnson, but who else it involved I am not sure, becuase obviously LBJ did not pull the trigger, but who he hired to I can not say. I am still researching this part.

5. Here is just some other information that I think is interesting pertaining to this case. 1. The motorcade rout was changed the morning of Nov 22. 2. I dont remember where I saw this but just before JFK is shot LBJ ducks down in his limo as if to get out of the way. 3. Jack Ruby says over and over again before he dies that if he is taken to DC he will tell everything he knows about the case.

If anybody wants to talk about this case more I would be more then happy to e-mail w/ you luvyaw@hotmail.com

~Lyzy~

 

[Richard]

You make some interesting observations regarding the Kennedy assassination.
Most people might tend to agree that the single most flaw in the Warren Report is their presentation of the "Single Bullet Theory" which is often called the "Magic Bullet Theory" by its detractors. This theory was that a single bullet fired from Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle hit Kennedy in the back, then emerged just below his throat (near his necktie knot), then proceeded to hit John Connally in the back, exiting his chest, then breaking his wrist, and finally lodging in his left thigh.
The Warren Report failed to elaborate on positions of the two, and detractors made up their own incorrect sketch regarding seating positions and shot timing. Viewed correctly, it is quite possible that the one bullet did all that.
The harder thing to accept is that the first bullet likely missed after being deflected by a tree branch and riccocheting off the pavement. Possibly Kennedy was struck with a piece of that first bullet, causing his initial reaction, seen so much earlier than Connally's reaction to being hit.
The final head shot and wound does seem quite different from the behavior of the "Single/Magic Bullet".

 

[Mickeymouse523]

The magic bullet theory is what did it for me; 7 wounds in 2 people and pausing in mid air for 1.7 ( i think) second and changing its trajectory (sp?)

Also about the bullet that missed, a piece of the cement fragment hit a bystander, James Tague who was standign under the triple underpass. I think that this would show more then 3 shots, or there is the Warren Commission story of 3 shots, 1. Magic Bullet 2. Misses 3. fatal head shot.

I dont know all of the above is JMO!

 

[Richard]

>>The magic bullet theory is what did it for me; 7 wounds in 2 people and pausing in mid air for 1.7 ( i think) second and changing its trajectory (sp?)<<

A full metal jacketet military bullet is quite capable of passing through the soft tissue of two people in close proximity. The problem comes with the PERCEPTION of timing and allignment. In trying to explain HOW that "guilty lone nut" Lee Harvey Oswald did it, the Warren Commission erroneously stated that the first shot fired hit both men, the second shot missed, and the third shot hit Kennedy in the head.
This scenario just did not seem to fit with the photographic evidence of the Zapruder 8mm movie. And conspiracy enthusiasts are quick to riddicule the entire Warren Report because of it. In so doing, they allways exaggerate the feats of the so called "magic bullet".
Analyzing that film, Kennedy seems to react to being hit, while Connally sits there undisturbed for a couple of seconds before reacting violently to his wounds.
Actually, Kennedy (who has reacted to something and grabs for his throat) reacts again - more violently - immediately before Connally does - to the same shot. Kennedy's elbows splay upward quickly in reaction to the bullet hitting his spine. Connally's shoulder drops, his cheeks puff out, and his coat opens a bit before he collapses into the arms of his wife.
The bullet did not make any sharp angle turns to accomplish this. If you look at the limousene's seating arrangements, Kennedy and his wife are sitting on the full back seat. Kennedy's arm at one point is resting on the metal exterior just behind the rear door. Connally and his wife, on the other hand, are sitting in removable jump seats which are placed lower and closer to the centerline of the vehicle. Except for some tumbling of the bullet, the shot was in a straight line.
Kennedy was sitting in somewhat of a slouched position and the back of his coat had ridden up slightly. The bullet struck a few inches below his coat collar, passed just to the right of his spine, striking one of the vertibrae slightly, and then passed out his throat just under his adams apple. It nicked his tie knot. The bullet then began to tumble and struck Connally in the upper right back near his armpit, still tumbling, it struck ribs and exited near his right nipple. The bullet then hit his wrist breaking it and (by then nearly spent) it came to rest in his left thigh, making only a superficial wound.
Not many books go into great detail about the specifics of the wounds. I would suggest two:
"Kennedy and Lincoln" by John Lattimer and
"Mortal Error: the Shot that Killed JFK" by Bonar Menninger and Howard Donahue
There are many questions which linger about the assassination. When one seems to be answered, more appear.

 

[miles_draken]

Hey guys, everyone knows that the " Smoking Man " from X-files shot the president from the storm drain on the side of the street!! Seriously though, LBJ was a real hard core son of a gun, there is a rumour that he killed his own sister, who was a prostitute or something, to shut her up. I think it's quite possible that he was in on it along with other government officials. As far as the mob being involved, no way, they couldn't pull off something like that in my opinion. It was a government job. If anyone is still basing theories off of Oliver Stones JFK that movie was so horribly inaccurate I can't believe it was even made. Jim Garrison was quite a rambling idiot and even knew he was way off. He didn't deliver that emotional speech in the courtroom like Kevin Costner did in the movie, he was barely there toward the end. Anyway, my 2 cents, LBJ did the deed. I did see the Discovery CHannel program on proving Oswald could have done it, but the guy they used was a sharpshooter, and I've heard that Oswald wasn't a crack shot. I love this conspiracy story though.

Interesting note: Bobby Kennedy once said to a friend in private that he thought the gentleman in New Orleans had a role in the assassination of his brother. You know, Tommy Lee Jones queer in JFK, Clay Shaw or Bertrand. Makes ya think!

 

[Mickeymouse523]

About the storm drain, I personally dont think that, that is a plausible place, they have done trial runs of that and basically it would be a shot in the dark because you could not see what you were shooting at.

More about the magic bullet, I completly agree that one bulllet can cause wounds in 2 differnt people, I dont buy that it can stop in mid air for like i said before around 1.7 seconds and change the direction it is going.

I think that there was a connection in New Orleans, again I am still researching this part, and I think that Clay Shaw/ Bretrand probably were involved just based on the fact that they both had proven ties to Oswald and Ruby...

Again all the above is JMO...

 

[Mickeymouse523]

Just curious if anyone watched the Discovery Channel Special, about the magic bullet?? It was very interesting, and I would like to know what other people thought about it...

 

[Doubro]

Just curious if anyone watched the Discovery Channel Special, about the magic bullet?? It was very interesting, and I would like to know what other people thought about it...

Actually , I just did watch the MBT ( Magic Bullet theory) explanation and attempted vindication by the Discovery channel.

It seems marginally clear that the producers started with an assumption that the MBT was correct and were looking for experiments and experts that would back them up.

Some of their evidence may hold water, some are simply conjecture based on computer models that are about as accurate as a WWII Italian Carcano on a moving target. Not very...

The last experiment was the most telling as it claims to prove the MBT is not only reasonable , but probable.

I don't know how many different and non-successful attempts they had to make to get a bullet to look the way they wanted, but I think each time they shot the full metal jacket through bone, the bullet was moderately deformed. We know that at the very least, there was a broken wrist.

Even though it's possible to have a "pristine" bullet emerge from "soft tissue", the final bullet they point to in the Discovery channels MBT biased show is significantly more deformed than exbt 399 or whatever it was called. They hang their hat on the possiblity that the bullet may have just glanced or graised hard parts of the body.

I don't know that much about JFK's assasination, but I have shot more than a few rifles and know that FMJ rounds are still soft lead underneath and will deform when hitting bone or other hard material. To point to the warped bullet they ended up with as "proof" of MBT was a little absurd.

They also took pains to shoot into the lengthwise end of a wood post at point blank range, attempting to show how tough the copper FMJ casing is, but I wondered why they didn't shoot against the grain of the wood.?. maybe into a dead stump and then fish the round out. Instead they shot into the wood the way someone would send an axe into wood to cleave it in half, which more than likely split the woods grain while keeping the shape of the round in tact.

Lets see them shoot AGAINST the grain and duplicate that bit of entertainment. The two glaring inaccuracies in the Discovery experiment is that Lee Harvey was shooting at a moving target , and it was also a live target. There are two conditions that we'ren't checked and were not really given any acknowledgement.

Sure, bullets can keep their shape sometimes, but with the blunt shape of the Italian rounds that were used in the rifle, it would be more likely to deform severly, considering the velocity and what it was hiting. Having been shot though neck , back and/or chest, ... and a wrist, it's probable that the bullet was either mushroomed or twisted unlike the fairly clean projectile that looked as though someone shot it into a jello mold.

My opinion only... your milage may vary.

Doubro:waitasec:

 

[Dark Knight]

About the storm drain, I personally dont think that, that is a plausible place, they have done trial runs of that and basically it would be a shot in the dark because you could not see what you were shooting at.

More about the magic bullet, I completly agree that one bulllet can cause wounds in 2 differnt people, I dont buy that it can stop in mid air for like i said before around 1.7 seconds and change the direction it is going.

I think that there was a connection in New Orleans, again I am still researching this part, and I think that Clay Shaw/ Bretrand probably were involved just based on the fact that they both had proven ties to Oswald and Ruby...

Again all the above is JMO...

I've also seen the tests on the storm drain where they said it was impossible to see the motorcade from there or to even get a straight shot off from there. Highly unlikely location.

 

[Richard]

The science of ballistics can prove some things, but certainly not other. For instance, you cannot "prove" or disprove what shape a bullet will be when it has expended its energy in a target.
What type and shape of material the bullet strikes, what it hits first, second, and third, what the distance was, what the exact amount of powder was, and its age, etc are all variable factors that enter into the mix.
Regardless of all those variables, one thing is fairly certain, and that after exiting the body of President Kennedy, the bullet had to go somewhere. That "somewhere" would have been in the general direction of Governor John Connally who was seated on a jump seat forward and below Kennedy.
The problem which faced the Warren Commission investigators was to reconcile the various wounds and bullet strikes with the number allegedly fired from the rifle of the Lone Gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Witness testimony differed widely as to number of shots and direction. The main piece of evidence used to "solve" the crime was an 8mm home movie taken by Abraham Zapruder of the event. A movie camera takes pictures at a set speed, usually between 16 and 18 frames per second. Taking still pictures from that movie, the commission tried to determine exactly when and where the shots struck. Their choice and interpretation of specific frames and subsequent reconstruction of the crime was where they erred and where most of the criticism comes from regarding the Single Bullet Theory, aka the "Magic Bullet Theory".
The Warren Commission Report stated that the First bullet fired missed the entire limosine. The Second (Magic Bullet) shot, they say, hit Kennedy and Connally, and the Third shot hit Kennedy in the head, killing him.
The big problem with most folks is the apparent time lapse between Kennedy's first reaction to that of Connally. Connally himself always believed that Kennedy was struck by the first bullet and that he was struck by the second.
What may well have happened is that Kennedy could have been struck by a riccocheting bullet fragment from the First shot, causing him to react in a startled way, and to bring his hands toward his throat or face. Only two frames prior to Connally's reaction to his wounds, Kennedy also reacts in a violent manner to the Second bullet striking close to his spine. Kennedy's hands are already close to his throat, but suddenly his hands become fists, and both elbows fly upward. A fraction of a second later, Connally reacts to the same shot.
The Third shot has always been the mystery shot for me. Given the accepted behavior of the second shot and the emergence of such a slightly deformed bullet, How could the Third shot fragment so badly and cause such a terrible wound?

 

[Richard]

The Storm Drain Scenario Theory predates the X-Files by more than 35 years. I first saw that in a magazine article about 1966. The article put one sniper in the Texas School Book Depository, another on the Daltex building, and a third in the storm drain. According to that article, the guy in the storm drain shot Kennedy in the throat from the front. As mentioned already in this thread, such a shot would have been close to impossible. I do not recall the magazine, but it might have been Life, Look, Post, or possibly True. It was one of the larger size magazines, and it included an artist's conception sketch of the crime.