TX - Sandra Bland, 28, found dead in jail cell, Waller County, 13 July 2015 #3

[KaaBoom]

I also think it's a disservice to tell someone to refuse to talk to an officer about anything. You may have the legal right to do that, but it will generally be seen as confrontational. it's not going to get you off any easier. And sorry, it makes you look stupid.

Exercising your rights makes you look stupid?:facepalm:

With due respect, not exercising your rights is what makes you look stupid, and encourages the cops to violate your constitutional rights.

 

[human]

I'll say this, if I behaved as SB did during this traffic stop I'd expect to be going to jaiI. If SB believed her rights were violated she was entitled to her day in court. Instead she chose, tragically, to end her life.


I'd like to believe if she was not under the influence she would not behaved as she did and she would have taken the warning and been on her way.

This is short but good

http://www.careerprofiles.info/law-enforcement-professional-qualities.html

 

[KaaBoom]

Running her mouth is my term for the foul language she used. I linked the statute for disorderly conduct - SB's behavior fit the description and then escalated to the alleged kick, which increased her charge.

Foul language is protected under the First Amendment. If it wasn't most cops in this country would be in prison, because 95% of them use foul language all the time.

 

[Night-owl]

Exercising your rights makes you look stupid?:facepalm:

With due respect, not exercising your rights is what makes you look stupid, and encourages the cops to violate your constitutional rights.

Not responding when a police officer (or anyone, for that matter) asks you something, makes you look exceptionally stupid, even though it may be within your legal rights.

Generally, when people start to scrutinize the law about what they do or do not have to do, it's a sign common sense has left the building.



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[Goose22]

Not responding when a police officer (or anyone, for that matter) asks you something, makes you look exceptionally stupid, even though it may be within your legal rights.

Generally, when people start to scrutinize the law about what they do or do not have to do, it's a sign common sense has left the building.



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This sounds like a good way to shame people into not excercising their rights.

 

[margarita25]

I think it is difficult for those that have never been aggressively and unduly harassed by a police officer(s) (especially if they are not a minority) to understand that it does happen. And they do not know how it feels. I might be in the group that did not understand, had I not seen it and experienced it myself. Imo, generally speaking, some police officers are being unjustifiably extra aggressive, in a VERY scary way.

Yes I understand that police officers have to be on guard, as they can be approaching potentially dangerous people, and I so appreciate and value their service and risking their safety to get the "bad guys" off the streets, but honestly, sometimes imo they harass people for no reason, "fishing" and going out of their way to try to find soooomething, and that is the truth imo...(is this so they can meet their quotas? Get extra bonuses?) I myself have been approached and harassed for walking down the street after dark (its a free country last I checked!), and imo racially profiled and harassed because of my appearance (tattoos, etc). This is coming from someone that is not a criminal and is a positive member of society imo.

Unfortunately the bad cops give the good cops a bad name, imo.

Hopefully I did not break any rules here. I have not been on this thread due to posts I found to be rude and off color.

 

[TorisMom003]

SB's swearing rises to the level of verbal abuse and threats, IMO. She wasn't just swearing out of frustration-- she was clearly verbally abusing, baiting/ antagonizing, and threatening the officer, IMO. And escalating the situation.

She should have exercised her "right to remain silent", or at a minimum, faked some polite behavior. IMO, she is responsible for escalating the situation, and causing her own arrest. It's not like she hadn't been arrested before-- with her history, she should have been an "expert" at acting socially appropriately, to get out of trouble.

I'm glad she was arrested before she hurt someone else. Her history of nearly $8000 in unpaid traffic fines, substance abuse, and multiple traffic violations-- along with her impulsive, argumentative, and combative behavior makes me really glad she was off the streets.

Be that as it may, it's very sad and unfortunate she chose to commit an impulsive suicide 3 days later. I can't fathom why so many want to blame her suicide on the arresting officer-- but no one is criticizing the family members who wouldn't bail her out, and only a few find fault with the jail personnel. A lot of people want to pile on the arresting officer, but ignore how her own behavior rapidly escalated the situation from a simple stop, to an arrest.

People who want to make every encounter confrontational and oppositional have a very hard time moving smoothly and successfully through life-- they have trouble with a lot of social interactions, can't hold jobs, can't follow rules or laws, defy and combat any forms of authority, and generally live within a lot of self-induced chaos. IMO. (And that's leaving out the considerable compounding effects of substance abuse and mental illness.) Police officers are faced with dealing with these kinds of deeply dysfunctional people 24/7-- and they don't get to make any mistakes, lose their temper, or have a bad day.

Usually I agree with your posts but I can not on this subject. Despite what BE claims, Ms. Bland did not start cursing until she was already under arrest. While in her car she did not utter one curse word though I am sure plenty were on the tip of her tongue. Even after getting out of her car, while being threatened with a taser, she still did not utter one curse word. While walking in front of BE's car and to the side of the road, with a taser pointed at her back, she still did not utter one curse word. It was not until she is out of camera range that we hear scuffling and THAT is when Ms. Bland begins to curse.

We do have the video and that video proves that BE lied when "explaining" to his superior (or whomever he was talking to) about the stop and what occurred.

 

[bluesneakers]

Exercising your rights makes you look stupid?:facepalm:

With due respect, not exercising your rights is what makes you look stupid, and encourages the cops to violate your constitutional rights.

I think being aware of your rights and exercising them is smart. Not knowing them and/or letting a random cop rob you of them is what's (imo) stupid.

 

[Night-owl]

This sounds like a good way to shame people into not excercising their rights.

If you are unable to get through a traffic stop, even though the officer is being a jerk, without ending up in jail, you should be ashamed.

If you have to break down every interaction to what you think your rights are (and obviously, it's not cut and dried, even with the pros), and be determined to not do one single thing you don't have to do by law, you should be ashamed.

If you think putting out a cigarette is just one short step to Nazis bootstepping up your sidewalk, you should be ashamed.

If you mistake standing for your rights with deciding you can do what ever you want, you should be ashamed.

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[kimlynn]

If you are unable to get through a traffic stop, even though the officer is being a jerk, without ending up in jail, you should be ashamed.

If you have to break down every interaction to what you think your rights are (and obviously, it's not cut and dried, even with the pros), and be determined to not do one single thing you don't have to do by law, you should be ashamed.

If you think putting out a cigarette is just one short step to Nazis bootstepping up your sidewalk, you should be ashamed.

If you mistake standing for your rights with deciding you can do what ever you want, you should be ashamed.

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IMO it says more about the members of LE that expect citizens to obey their orders with blind trust.
It's an epidemic. Just read another story on CNN.
Story is gone now. Pregnant woman taken down for not giving full name. ACLU says she was within her rights.

 

[human]

LE does not accept that kind of behavior . Others as well as I have posted how le expects officers to behave

 

[Night-owl]

IMO it says more about the members of LE that expect citizens to obey their orders with blind trust.
It's an epidemic. Just read another story on CNN.
Story is gone now. Pregnant woman taken down for not giving full name. ACLU says she was within her rights.

Please let me know where I said anything about blind trust? I'll go back and correct it.

Just briefly looked at the reporting you mentioned. School employee calls police, says pregnant woman threw something at her car, threatened her. Police come to take report, pregnant woman won't ID herself. Federal lawa say you need to ID, California state laws say no. Suddenly not quite as cut and dry. The suit seems to be more in regards to excess force in the arrest, not the ID issue.

The ACLU is pretty good at picking the court fights they can win. They aren't perfect, so it could be a loss for them. My hunch is this never goes to trial, there will be an out of court settlement and some clarification of the law.

Assuming you're unable to work with police for some reason only you know, that is how to do it. Totally the way it should have played out for Sandra.

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[kareylou]

You must be very young, if you think cops are more respectful and restrained now.

The first time I was ever pulled over, if you can even call it that. I was making a right turn and I heard a car horn beep. I looked over and saw a police car beside me. I rolled down my window, and the cop called to me, "One of your brake lights is out. Please get it fixed as soon as you can". I said, "Oh thanks, I dind't know.", and he drove off. In those days if a cop stopped me to question me, they would ask me if I would mind answering a few questions. Then they would ask one or two quick questions, and that would be it.

Fast-forward 30 years later and the cops are pulling me over and giving me tickets for every stupid little thing they can think of. Ordering me out of my car, hand cuffing me, searching my car without my consent, threatening me. I could go on with endless examples of how cops are worse today then ever before. People are not getting fed up with the police, because they are becoming more respectful.



It would be nice if that is the way it worked, but that is not the case. Cops are murdering people, even when they know they are being recorded. Cops today just don't care.

I thanked KaBoom (sp) for this post because he is speaking from his own experience and telling us how it makes him feel and what conclusions he draws from his experience. We should bear witness. Telling people who are bothered by being pulled over all the time that they just shouldn't be is IMO just willfully blind and insensitive.

Let me relate my experience. I am a meek-looking mid 50s piano teacher. Blonde and petite. I live in a northern Virginia suburb. A few years ago my dying father moved in with my sister in NY so she could take care of him. It was quite a job, and I would drive up every Friday and back on Monday to help.
It was pretty exhausting, so when a university composition professor colleague told me he would be working weekends in New York and offered to take me back and forth I jumped at the chance. Because he lived right in downtown DC he owned a beater car and recently the driver's side window had been broken out so he covered it with clear plastic of some kind. I remember those rides so well for making a horribly painful situation more tolerable. We would sing, or discuss music, or if his 7 year old daughter came along I would sit in the back and play games with her. She was an extraordinarily loving and bright young girl, and he remains to this day one of the best fathers I have ever known. No hyperbole. He also has long dreads and a variety of colorful tattoos which are not covered by street clothing, and yes he is black.
I had driven back and forth for many months without incident but as soon as I started going back and forth with him we would get pulled over maybe every other time.
One time his daughter was along. The officer leaned in and pointedly asked me if I was all right. I smiled and held up the drawing the little girl and I were working on and said "yes, thanks for asking". Usually at this point the officer would go back to his vehicle and run the plates or whatever and come back and tell us we were free to go.
But this officer said that when he leaned in he had smelled marijuana in the car (I have a super sensitive nose and I didn't smell a thing except our fries). He told him to open the glove box and when my friend did, there was a pack of cigarettes visible. Little "Mary" had been sniffling softly until this moment, when she started wailing "Daddy you told me you were quitting! You're going to die! They showed us the pictures of smokers' lungs in school!"
He then told my friend to get out of the car, frisked him, and Told him in a quite threatening manner that his hands would stay on the hood until he was told otherwise. Friend is also 6'4". He told me to come back to the squad car. Not having the fear reaction to the police that a black male like my friend has, (who was totally compliant), I uncharacteristically got angry. He said he needed me to tell my side of the story out of earshot of my friend. I refused and replied that it should be clear by now that I was along voluntarily and my main concern was the little girl sobbing alone in the back seat of a car. There was a standoff of sorts for a while in which I politely asserted my "rights" and refused to do what he said. I don't know why I reacted that way in the heat of the situation. Something told me this guy was bad news.
When we were finally let go, we spent the rest of the trip comforting his daughter. We explained that a "bad guy" had done something, and he had a car just like the one we were riding in so the policeman had to make sure the bad guy wasn't in our car. Once they figured out that he was just your wonderful good guy dad, they let us go. Then came the discussion about how hard it is to quit smoking and a renewed commitment to do so.
We dropped her off at her aunts in Philly and she immediately ran to her aunts arms and began sobbing and wailing again. I myself was very surprised at how traumatized I felt and what a violation it felt that we could be riding along singing one minute and pulled over and ordered around the next.
It was a real eye opener and as someone else said, personal experience is the major determining factor in how we feel about this issue, IMO. Thanks for putting up with the novel.

 

[arkansasmimi]

All of it is important. The reason I did specific sections was in order to answer a few questions I had seen posted in the last two pages of this thread.
One was in regard to being denied an attorney. As you can tell she wasn't denied verbally,but BE is grabbing at her and telling her to get out of her car and telling her to put her phone down,obviously she isn't able to call her attorney with all that happening.
The second question was at what point did BE consider SB to be under arrest.
As posted earlier feel free to add as you see fit.
IMO

Respectfully, the conversation with whomever he was speaking with after the arrest, had no bearing on the situation as it was going on. JMHO...

Here is my transcript, I may be off a sec or 2 on a few, as it hard to stop it and restart some points. but I do feel comfortable but if I did make a mistake I will continue to be open minded and re listen.

840 Trooper arrives at driver side window..
840 Trooper: Okay,Ma'am
846 Trooper: are you okay?
847 SB: I'm waiting on you. This is your job. I'm waiting on you. When are you going to let me go?
851 Trooper: you seem very irritated
854 SB: I am. I really am. I feel like it's crap what I'm getting a ticket for. I was getting out of your way. You were speeding up, tailing me, so I move over and you stop me. So yeah, I am a little irritated, but that doesn’t stop you from giving me a ticket, so
908 Trooper: are you done?
9011 SB: You asked me whats up, so I told you.
912 Trooper: okay
913 SB: so yeah I done
917-920 Trooper: ok you mind putting out your cig, please, if you dont mind
923 SB: I'm in my car, why do I have to put, put my cig out?
925/926 Trooper: well you can step on out now
927 SB: I don't have to step out
929 Trooper: Step out of the car *lays his clip board on hood
932 *Trooper opens door
933 Trooper: step out of the car
934 SB: No you don't have the right
935 Trooper: Step out of the car
936 SB: You do not have the right to do
937/939 Trooper: I do have the right, now step out or I will remove you
940/941 SB: I refuse to talk to you other than to identify myself
943/944 Trooper: step out or I will remove you
945 SB: I am getting removed for a failure to
947/948 Trooper: Step out or I will remove you
949/950 Trooper: I am giving you a Lawful Order
951/952 Trooper: Get out of the car ~NOW~ or I am going to remove you
955 SB: And I am calling my lawyer... **Can see SB head move over to the right
956 Trooper: I am gonna yank you outta here **starts reaching in
957 SB: Okay your gonna yank me outta my car okay **Trooper starts moving back out of car
958 Trooper: Get out
959: SB: Okay, alright let's do this
10:00 Trooper: 2547 ** calling dispatch
1001 SB: alright let's do this
1001 Trooper yeah your going to
1002 yeah
1003 ** Trooper backs out, unsure if he is trying to pull on her as cant see,
1004 SB: Don't touch me
1005 Trooper: Get out of the car * appears to be trying to get her out of the car little movement
1007/1008 SB: Don't touch me - I'm not under arrest- you don't have the right to take..
1009 Trooper: You are.. under arrest
1010 SB: I'm under arrest for what?
1012 Trooper: 2547
1012 SB: For what?
1013 Trooper: FM 1098
1014 Trooper: Send me another unit
1015/1016 Trooper: Get out of the car
1017 Dispatch: need another unit 2457
1019 Trooper Get out of the car - NOW
1020/1021 SB Why am i being apprehended? - you trying to give me a ticket for failure
1022 Trooper: NOW
1023 Trooper: I said GET OUT OF THE CAR
1024 S: Why am I being apprehended?
1025 Trooper: I am giving you a Lawful Order
1026 SB: you just open my car door...
1027 Trooper: I'm gonna drag you...
1028 SB: SO your gonna drag me outta my own car
1029 SB So your threatening drag me outta my own car **Trooper backs out
1030 Trooper gets taser and points
1031 Trooper Get out of the car!
1032 SB: And then you gonna light me
1033 Trooper: I Will LIGHT YOU UP- GET OUT
1034 SB WOW
1035 Trooper: NOW **Trooper backs up
1036 SB Wow * starts exiting
1037 Trooper: Get out of car ** SB gets out holding up phone appears to be filming
1038/1039 SB: All this for failure to signal you.. your doing all of this for failure to signal
1040 Trooper: get over there
1041 SB: Right - yeah
1042 SB: Yeah- let's take this to court.. let's
1043 Trooper: go ahead
1044 *last of trooper body out of frame, SB ahead of him
1045 SB: for a failure to signal - yep for a failure to signal
1046 Trooper Get off the phone
1047 SB *sound like from* .. my school
1048 Trooper: get off the phone
1049 SB: I not on the phone-I have a right to record you with my property
1050: Trooper put your phone down
1051 SB: Sir?
1054: Trooper : Put your phone down
1055: Trooper: right now
1056 Trooper: put your phone down
1059/1100 **you see SB slam her phone onto the back of her car.

 

[Confusion]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see any cussing there.

 

[Elisaa444]

Not responding when a police officer (or anyone, for that matter) asks you something, makes you look exceptionally stupid, even though it may be within your legal rights.

Generally, when people start to scrutinize the law about what they do or do not have to do, it's a sign common sense has left the building.



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BBM

Then, I think BE is exceptionally stupid. When he politely asked Sandra Bland if she wouldn't mind putting out her cigarette, he ignored her. Btw, "do you mind putting out your cigarette" does not sound like a LEO giving an order so it just makes sense to me that a motorist would reasonably ask why? And so she did and here is her question (which contains no foul language):

"Why do I have to put out my cigarette in my own car?"

Instead of answering her question, like a professional LEO would do, he chose to IGNORE her. So, it makes all the sense in the world that he must be exceptionally stupid too. I wonder why he chose to IGNORE this citizen's question and instead chose to order her out of her vehicle? IMO, I'm thinking it is because he knew she was right. She did not have to and he didn't like that. No citizen was going to show him up and not do something he asked- no matter what it was and I arrived at that opinion based on how he chose to respond to her question.

IMO, a LEO who was confident in his decision to make this request would be able to provide an explanation as to why he is asking her of this. Also, IMO, because it is not a lawful order it would seem even that more reasonable to answer her question since it is something that she does NOT have to do. A LEO is not to escalate a situation with a citizen, therefore, choosing to answer her and provide an explanation would have been the right thing to do and the only thing that makes any sense...well, besides not asking at all or at the very least replying back to her "yes, you don't have to put it out. I was asking you politely because of x, y, or z...here is your warning/ticket ....driver safely, use your turn signal while changing lanes...have a good day."


In this traffic stop I hold the LEO to the higher standard (by far) than I do of the citizen going about her day as to how one chooses to conduct themselves. IMO< BE is in the drivers seat as far as how this exchange is going to go. BE could have simply answered her (he must have had some reason...or perhaps not since he could not or would not provide her with one. Why he couldn't use his communications skills and relay an explanation verbally to her I don't know...He was trained in how to communicate/de-escalate/ how to handle traffic stops overall. Maybe had a memory lapse on how to professionally handle certain situations during a traffic stop and maybe he couldn't recall how to handle Sandra Bland without breaking policy. He has only been in this position for just over a year. Based on my knowledge and experiences with having retired family and current family in LE that is NOT a long time at all to go without getting written up and/or disciplined.

** The above is my opinion only. Yours may vary. I respect all opinions and views just the same. **

 

[Wysteria]

SB's swearing rises to the level of verbal abuse and threats, IMO. She wasn't just swearing out of frustration-- she was clearly verbally abusing, baiting/ antagonizing, and threatening the officer, IMO. And escalating the situation.

She should have exercised her "right to remain silent", or at a minimum, faked some polite behavior. IMO, she is responsible for escalating the situation, and causing her own arrest. It's not like she hadn't been arrested before-- with her history, she should have been an "expert" at acting socially appropriately, to get out of trouble.

I'm glad she was arrested before she hurt someone else. Her history of nearly $8000 in unpaid traffic fines, substance abuse, and multiple traffic violations-- along with her impulsive, argumentative, and combative behavior makes me really glad she was off the streets.

Be that as it may, it's very sad and unfortunate she chose to commit an impulsive suicide 3 days later. I can't fathom why so many want to blame her suicide on the arresting officer-- but no one is criticizing the family members who wouldn't bail her out, and only a few find fault with the jail personnel. A lot of people want to pile on the arresting officer, but ignore how her own behavior rapidly escalated the situation from a simple stop, to an arrest.

People who want to make every encounter confrontational and oppositional have a very hard time moving smoothly and successfully through life-- they have trouble with a lot of social interactions, can't hold jobs, can't follow rules or laws, defy and combat any forms of authority, and generally live within a lot of self-induced chaos. IMO. (And that's leaving out the considerable compounding effects of substance abuse and mental illness.) Police officers are faced with dealing with these kinds of deeply dysfunctional people 24/7-- and they don't get to make any mistakes, lose their temper, or have a bad day.

Superb post, sensible and intelligent.
Well stated; far better than I could.
Thanks button was not enough. Thanks much

 

[JeannaT]

I think this whole thing boils down to choosing your battles, and "is this the hill you want to die on?" Sometimes when you decide to fight about something it has to be worth the fight.

If you engaged everyone who you think might have slightly wronged you, you'd be fighting all day long.

 

[human]

I think this whole thing boils down to choosing your battles, and "is this the hill you want to die on?" Sometimes when you decide to fight about something it has to be worth the fight.

If you engaged everyone who you think might have slightly wronged you, you'd be fighting all day long.

Do you mean the trained professional BE?

 

[Confusion]

I think this whole thing boils down to choosing your battles, and "is this the hill you want to die on?" Sometimes when you decide to fight about something it has to be worth the fight.

If you engaged everyone who you think might have slightly wronged you, you'd be fighting all day long.

I totally agree, and I think that protecting your constitutional rights is a battle that's always worth fighting. If a neighbor, relative or even a stranger treated me with the disdain that BE showed SB, I could ignore it. If that same person were to try doing something or to make me do something that would violate my rights, I'd be just as likely to stand my ground as SB was during that stop. IMO, if you freely give up your rights in order to avoid a conflict, you're going to eventually find yourself without any rights.

MOO