TX - Teacher Faces 20 Years For Having Sex With An 18 Year Old Student

[jttnewguy]

Scientists, doctors, lawyers, engineers, principals, etc., often take additional classes after they have graduated and started their profession.

As for fair, 18 year olds fight and die for our country. On that basis alone, I would consider that they have the right to give their sexual consent to whomever they wish.

Well, I really don't want to keep beating a dead horse. But I think you're still completely missing my point, which is that in certain situations where one party has absolute power over the other, there is no such thing as "consent" because the opportunity for exploitation and coercion is so strong, no matter the ages involved, that therefore sex has no place in those relationships.

It's not OK for police officers to make decisions about what neighborhoods to patrol, or who to arrest, based on who's willing to provide sex. It's not OK for judges to ask for sex from defendants that they are going to sentence. It's not OK for the IRS to give tax refunds to people who are willing to sleep with auditors, and to audit those who refuse. It's not OK for a state child welfare worker to solicit sex from the mother of a child he is investigating, or for a parole officer to solicit sex from a parolee he is supervising. In all of those situations, in one sense the sex is "consensual" in the sense that it was not forcible or violent, but in another more realistic sense it isn't, because the person is not really in a position to say no without serious repercussions, nor can they voluntarily terminate the encounter and walk away and avoid that person (like they could after being solicited in a bar or restaurant) because the law requires them to be there and to keep interacting with that person under penalty of imprisonment. That's precisely why, in every one of the situations I just mentioned, it's a crime for the person in authority to ask for sex, whether or not the other person "consented" and whether or not they were over 18 or under 18.

As for your example of the 35-year old student, if he's already a high school graduate who's only there to supplement his education, then the law should not apply -- not because of his age, but rather because there is nothing he needs UNDER PENALTY OF LAW from that teacher. He is not required by law to attend that school, as high school students are (unless they want to drop out and never go to college or get any job requiring a diploma). In other words, the element of power is not there -- the teacher has no state-sanctioned power over him backed by the school district police force and the truancy laws.

However, in the case of a high school student to whom the truancy laws do apply, the problem is that the student has no freedom -- he/she cannot leave or they will be subject to arrest by the school district police, they cannot appeal their grades if the teacher marks them down for saying No, they cannot transfer to another school because in most districts you are required to attend the school closest to where you live. Their choice is: they can either get involved with the teacher, or else put their grades/future/diploma/college application at risk for something that has nothing whatsoever to do with their classroom performance. That's precisely why it is a crime, in almost every state, for teachers to solicit sex from their students, regardless of age -- because it's not the age that matters, it's the possibility of exploitation and coercion created by unlimited and absolute power that one party has over the other.

 

[christine2448]

LOL What an education I get here!!! Thanks.

NO Kidding!

 

[Wudge]

Well, I really don't want to keep beating a dead horse. But I think you're still completely missing my point, which is that in certain situations where one party has absolute power over the other, there is no such thing as "consent" because the opportunity for exploitation and coercion is so strong, no matter the ages involved,

SNIP

As for your example of the 35-year old student, if he's already a high school graduate who's only there to supplement his education, then the law should not apply -- not because of his age, but rather because there is nothing he needs UNDER PENALTY OF LAW from that teacher. He is not required by law to attend that school, as high school students are (unless they want to drop out and never go to college or get any job requiring a diploma). In other words, the element of power is not there -- the teacher has no state-sanctioned power over him backed by the school district police force and the truancy laws.

However, in the case of a high school student to whom the truancy laws do apply, the problem is that the student has no freedom -- he/she cannot leave or they will be subject to arrest by the school district police, they cannot appeal their grades if the teacher marks them down for saying No, they cannot transfer to another school because in most districts you are required to attend the school closest to where you live. Their choice is: they can either get involved with the teacher, or else put their grades/future/diploma/college application at risk for something that has nothing whatsoever to do with their classroom performance. That's precisely why it is a crime, in almost every state, for teachers to solicit sex from their students, regardless of age -- because it's not the age that matters, it's the possibility of exploitation and coercion created by unlimited and absolute power that one party has over the other.

You said, "no matter the ages involved"; it's clear, I differ there, greatly.

To me, the law as written is ridiculous, and I look at the case the same way. Nevertheless, a good part of me really wants this case to go to trial, for I would like to see what a jury would say.

 

[Nova]

Well, I really don't want to keep beating a dead horse. But I think you're still completely missing my point...

One can agree with you that many types of relationships hold a potential for exploitation of the "weaker" party without agreeing that these relationships need be criminalized.

Is a teacher sleeping with an adult student wrong? IMHO, yes. But such a teacher can be (and often is) discharged. What is the point of putting such a teacher in prison?

 

[Nova]

Wudge, its never okay for jurors to say a defendant is innocent of something because they think the law broken was "dumb."

Personally, I speak up during voir dire and announce I won't vote to convict any defendant of certain laws (most drug laws, as a rule). (The state does the job for me when it comes to death penalty cases.) By doing so, I avoid violating the oath I would take as a juror to follow the law as instructed by the judge.

But whether that's the most moral way to deal with unjust laws, I'm not sure.

 

[Wudge]

One can agree with you that many types of relationships hold a potential for exploitation of the "weaker" party without agreeing that these relationships need be criminalized.

SNIP

What is the point of putting such a teacher in prison?

Her going to prison would satisfy those who voted for this law -- fully knowing that the law was exposed to situations such as this case presents.

As regards criminalization of sex between consenting adults, I believe there is a Constitutional issue here as well, for if a women's "alleged" right to privacy is the basis for her being able to legally abort her baby (Roe), then it clearly can be argued that the same right to privacy would extend to consenting adults who chose to have sex.

 

[Nova]

Her going to prison would satisfy those who voted for this law -- fully knowing that the law was exposed to situations such as this case presents.

As regards criminalization of sex between consenting adults, I believe there is a Constitutional issue here as well, for if a women's "alleged" right to privacy is the basis for her being able to legally abort her baby (Roe), then it clearly can be argued that the same right to privacy would extend to consenting adults who chose to have sex.

Absolutely.

 

[paperhanger44z]

One can agree with you that many types of relationships hold a potential for exploitation of the "weaker" party without agreeing that these relationships need be criminalized.

Is a teacher sleeping with an adult student wrong? IMHO, yes. But such a teacher can be (and often is) discharged. What is the point of putting such a teacher in prison?

I totally agree.She should be punished by the school board,even fired possibly,but this should not be a criminal problem.



Paper

 

[Bobbisangel]

Scientists, doctors, lawyers, engineers, principals, etc., often take additional classes after they have graduated and started their profession.

As for fair, 18 year olds fight and die for our country. On that basis alone, I would consider that they have the right to give their sexual consent to whomever they wish.

Do those that take additional classes after they have graduated and started their profession take those classes at the local high school. I would imagine starting a relationship with a professor at college is a whole nother ballgame.

Well Wudge, it's a good thing that you aren't a high school teacher in Texas with 18 yr olds in your class or you might end up just like this teacher...in a world of hurt because the law is the law. Fair or not. I don't think that the school district or LE would much care if you think it is fair or not.

 

[dark_shadows]

Except that in a 1986 case called Bowers v. Hardwick, the U.S. Supreme Court explicitly stated that the constitution allows states to criminalize sodomy and other "unnatural" sex acts even between consenting adults. The Supreme Court has also held that states are permitted by the Constitution to criminalize any sex that occurs outside of marriage, even between adults, and in fact sex outside of marriage is still technically a crime in 8 states (called the crime of "seduction"), although police and prosecutors haven't bothered to enforce those laws for decades.

Basically, the right to privacy isn't nearly as broad as most people think it is. Most people don't realize that it only covers a tiny handful of situations mostly involving the relationship between a mother and child and decisions that directly affect childbearing, such as whether she wants children (thus the constitution prohibits a state from sterilizing someone against their will to prevent them from having children, Skinner v. Oklahoma), how many children she chooses to have and whether she chooses to use birth control to stop having more children (a state cannot criminalize the use of birth control devices, Griswold v. Connecticut), how she chooses to give birth (a state can't require a mother to go to a particular hospital to give birth, but I can't recall the name of the case), or whether she wants to terminate a pregnancy (states can impose conditions before a woman can get an abortion but cannot prevent it altogether, Roe v. Wade). The right also covers the relationship between husband and wife (their conversations are off limits, one cannot be forced to testify against the other, etc.). However, it has never been held to cover sex between unmarried adults.

Husbands and a wife testifing against each other;
In 1995, Texas joined the majority of states by abolishing the spousal privilege in cases where one spouse is charged with a crime against the other spouse.This amendment of the spousal privilege statute "sends a message that spousal violence is a crime against the state that society will not tolerate."
Also if a couple is married after a crime so that they will not testify against each other does not hold.
There are SPOUSAL PRIVILEGE EXCEPTION STATUTES in many states.

 

[dark_shadows]

jttnewguy,I am on the contradicting posts pertaining to the age of a student.Can you please clarify.You stated that the teacher controls a students grades,which is power no matter what the age of the student.

It is not ok for a teacher to have sex with a student,no matter what the age is.(I am NOT implying that YOU agree with this.It is a general statement)

The age is totally irrelevant. The point is that the teacher has unilateral power over the student, and that power is conferred upon her by, and backed by, the authority of the state under penalty of imprisonment. The student is not in a position to do what he pleases in the classroom no matter how old he is. Even if the student were 50 and the teacher were 19, the student would still be subject to laws regarding behavior in the classroom that are enforced by the teacher and backed by the school district police; his grades are still under the unilateral control of the teacher with no right to appeal those grades; and whether he graduates or not (and therefore gets to go to college or get any job that requires a degree) is under the control of the teacher. Students' grades and diplomas should be based on how well all of the students do on tests -- not on which of the students agreed to have sex with the teacher and which did not.

That's precisely why it is a crime, in almost every state, for teachers to solicit sex from their students, regardless of age -- because it's not the age that matters, it's the possibility of exploitation and coercion created by unlimited and absolute power that one party has over the other.

As for your example of the 35-year old student, if he's already a high school graduate who's only there to supplement his education, then the law should not apply -- not because of his age, but rather because there is nothing he needs UNDER PENALTY OF LAW from that teacher. He is not required by law to attend that school, as high school students are (unless they want to drop out and never go to college or get any job requiring a diploma). In other words, the element of power is not there -- the teacher has no state-sanctioned power over him backed by the school district police force and the truancy laws.

 

[Wudge]

Do those that take additional classes after they have graduated and started their profession take those classes at the local high school. I would imagine starting a relationship with a professor at college is a whole nother ballgame.

Well Wudge, it's a good thing that you aren't a high school teacher in Texas with 18 yr olds in your class or you might end up just like this teacher...in a world of hurt because the law is the law. Fair or not. I don't think that the school district or LE would much care if you think it is fair or not.

The law covers all student/ teacher situations, not just High School.

 

[natasha-cupcake]

Just a little (true) story that is relevant to this topic. When I was in high school back in the early to mid 70s, my best friend became enamoured of our new math teacher. She was 15 and very mature for her age. He was 25 years old at the time and considered very young at heart and "cool" by most of the students. In my 15 year old brain, I thought he was immature and overly involved in student's scholastic social lives. I was appalled to see my girlfriend openly flirting with him, staying after class to chat and prancing around in hot pants and high heel boots. In fairness to him, he appeared to attempt to control himself at first, but by the time she turned 16, they were secretly dating. Her parents were very educated, sophisticated people, who were in their early 50s by the time she was in high school. They knew about the relationship and approved of it. They thought he was smart, interesting and successful and he obviously thought the world of their daughter. They were married immediately after she graduated from high school and I always thought that he stole her youth away from her. She attended college, while married, and became a math teacher just like him. I lost touch with her just after our college years, in part because he steered her away from her friends and towards his own social circle. I always thought that their relationship should never have been, because even at 15 years old, I knew it was morally wrong for teachers to become romantically involved with their students. They did go on to have what appears to be a very happy married life and raised two lovely daughters. Although I never really approved of thier relationship, she was my friend and I never, ever, spoke ill of him. She passed away a year and a half ago, at the age of 48, after battling ovarian cancer for 13 years. To this day, I still don't know how to reconcile the facts. He should never have romanced a 15 year old girl, yet they went on to have a very happy life together-- a life that was shortened by cancer. I do miss her terribly.

I'm not trying to make any arguments for or against, by telling this story. I am completely opposed to teachers having relationships with students. My friend's experience does make me acknowledge, however, that life is not always black and white, but, instead, shades of gray.

 

[christine2448]

Natasha, great story, thanks for sharing, excellent points of view, IMO.

 

[LA2RK]

jttnewguy, Well done in post 27! You saved me from responding with the same information. The victim may be of legal age, but the teacher holds a position of authority and influence over him. IF the teacher had a sexual relationship with this student she violated the law. Not all laws are absolute and his being 18 didn't make her actions the exception.

 

[Wudge]

jttnewguy, Well done in post 27! You saved me from responding with the same information. The victim may be of legal age, but the teacher holds a position of authority and influence over him. IF the teacher had a sexual relationship with this student she violated the law. Not all laws are absolute and his being 18 didn't make her actions the exception.

I must have missed him saying he was a victim.

Do you support criminalizing sex between consenting adults?

 

[Nova]

It's very easy to insist "the law is the law no matter what" if your sexuality has never been criminalized by the state.

 

[jttnewguy]

jttnewguy,I am on the contradicting posts pertaining to the age of a student.Can you please clarify.You stated that the teacher controls a students grades,which is power no matter what the age of the student.

It is not ok for a teacher to have sex with a student,no matter what the age is.(I am NOT implying that YOU agree with this.It is a general statement)

Dark Shadows, I don't see any contradiction at all. The answer is right there, in the third section that you quote: the case involving the 35-year old scientist is different "NOT BECAUSE OF HIS AGE" but because, if he's already a scientist and is just there to refresh his knowledge as posed by Wudge, then the teacher does not have the same kind of power over him because has already graduated, gotten his diploma, gotten a college degree, and has a job and career. By definition, therefore, the truancy laws do not apply to him, he cannot be punished for skipping school, he cannot be flunked by the teacher, and the teacher does not control whether he graduates, gets a diploma, or goes to college, because he has already done all 3. As I consistently said in all three of my posts that you quoted, age is not relevant; regardless of whether the student is 17, 18, or 35, the issue is whether the teacher is in a position of power and authority over the student.

 

[jttnewguy]

I must have missed him saying he was a victim.

Do you support criminalizing sex between consenting adults?

Wudge, I'm reluctant to keep posting because I think we've already made our positions clear to just about everyone here, and I don't want to turn this into some kind of personal battle between us or unnecessarily create hard feelings since I don't really know you, and I'm afraid if I keep posting, that's exactly what's going to happen.

All I will say is this: the difference betwen your position and mine is that you see this issue as being about criminalizing sex. I see it as being about abuse of power. To me, sex isn't the issue at all; in fact, let's take sex completely out of the situation so that you can't keep harping about "criminalizing sex."

Let's say that the teacher didn't have sex with any student, but rather gave out preferential treatment to students who joined communist groups or openly denounced the President of the USA. Now, you and I agree that it's legal for an adult to have sex, and it's legal for an adult to join a communist group, and it's legal to denounce the President. But is it legal for a teacher to use her position as a teacher to encourage or pressure her students into doing these things?

Let's go further....say she used her classroom to recruit students into Al Quaeda. Now, in theory, it's legal for an adult to join Al Quaeda and it's legal to recruit for Al Quaeda (so long as you don't actually plan or assist terrorist attacks, anyway); but is it OK for a teacher to make this part of her everyday classroom curriculum?

Wudge, if your answer to any of these questions is that it's not OK for a teacher to recruit students for these (otherwise legal) activities, then why is it OK when it involves sex? If it's OK for a teacher to recruit a student for sex, then why not for Al Quaeda? All of these things -- sex, communism, denouncing George Bush, recruiting for Al Quaeda -- are legal when adults do them outside of the classroom, but does that mean it's OK for them to be in the classroom?

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

It's very easy to insist "the law is the law no matter what" if your sexuality has never been criminalized by the state.

Are you talking about pedophilia,necrophilia or beastiality?