UK - Alesha MacPhail, 6, raped & murdered, Ardbeg, Isle of Bute, Scotland, 2 Jul 2018 -*arrest* #3

[Alyce]

Was it proven who the 'shadowy' figure is ? The fact the person on CCTV is described as shadowy in the first place is enough to make it inconclusive. It may well have been the accused. Equally it could have been someone else. The timings fit but without a clear CCTV image of whoever that was it cannot be said for certain that it was the accused.

It was never proven because cctv at that range would have to be incredibly good to get a full facial image.
However, you would have to hope, in a small place like Rothesay that, if this had been someone other than the person abducting Alesha, they would, in the interests of justice, have come forward to explain themselves.

 

[Marlinspike]

No I don’t think it was but how likely is it that there was another individual skulking about at that time, on that day, in that place caught on two cctv cameras and with reports that it looked like they were carrying someone.. highly unlikely I would say.

Beyond reasonable doubt?

 

[Ruthbullock]

Trying to remember the shortest verdict I have known, on here. Think it was just over an hour

Due to lunch- I think we will have to wait a bit longer.

 

[Thebutlerdiditagain]

The more worrying thing is how normal he seems on YouTube etc if in fact he is guilty and convicted
We all want the bad to look Bad and stand out but sadly they normally gel into society and only get noticed when somthing happens

 

[Kikixxxx]

Also let’s not forget, the jury don’t have to find the accused guilty “beyond ALL doubt”

It’s “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt”

 

[Crestnut]

I don't agree 100% with your post, but i do mirror a number of the points you have made as i too feel (discussion in general aside) that there is an odd sense of determination to condemn which i too find quite uncomfortable.

I had this very conversation last night with a friend last night - i specifically said it worried me to think that a jury (which is by all accounts a random cross section of members of the public) could potentially be made up of people who seem to see things without shades of grey, or get 'nervous' or 'on edge' at the thought of a not guilty verdict. To me that isn't a jury.

There is something about this trial which still doesn't sit right with me. No matter who you look at it, there is fundamentally a lack of concrete evidence against the accused, and whilst his defence to some may seem far fetched it is a defence which has been successfully proven in other cases. It is also something that one of the experts deemed 'technically possible'.

It boils down to this. Either the 16 year old on the stand is a one-in-a-million, acutely advanced psychopath, with the potential to kill again, or there is something far more fundamental at the root of this case. My inclination is to go with the latter.

My gut feeling is, the lack of carelessness in terms of evidence at both the abduction site (the MacPhail's home) and the accused's own home does not add up with the obvious carelessness at the murder scene. Regardless of how you look at this, it simply does not fit.

Lastly, i see no motive. I think the idea that he had been planning this throughout the day is as far fetched as it gets - if he was, he certainly didn't plan particularly well given the mess that was left at the murder scene. However, i do see motive in certain other people involved.

I agree with everyone that justice for Alesha MacPhail is of the upmost importance, but if the wrong person is convicted, that in itself is doing that poor little girl the biggest injustice that could be done.

I am on the exact same wavelength as yourself The information now known about certain circumstances just makes me not 100% of a guilty

 

[Bustia]

Respectfully, i think the mistake you may be making is reading what is written in the press as some kind of guide to all of this. If you step back and look at it for what it is, things are much easier to see.

There are a couple of points i'd re-iterate:

Firstly, that the alternative scenario could well be driven by motive - jealousy and obsession. In many ways it could constitute a crime of passion. Both aspects have been documented both in and out of court. Both make sense.

Secondly, why frame a partner you are obsessed with ? It makes far more sense if you're going to frame anyone to frame the local teenager who has been the subject of rumour and gossip regarding potential previous incidents.

It may seem far fetched, but looking at things collectively i can't honestly say i think that.

If she is so obsessed with RM, why start a winter affair with an underage boy.

 

[Alyce]

Due to lunch- I think we will have to wait a bit longer.

Jury went out, as best I can time it, at 11.15am - so they could come back at - say 1pm - although I am inclined to think it will be later today.
I wonder if the Judge will send them an instruction that he doesn't want to hear from them between 1 and 2pm

 

[Neko Luna Moon]

I agree with this. I was on a Jury, same court.. lasted 10 days. You discuss everything about the case non stop.. except when the lunches are being served. It took us about 1 hour to decide on the verdict.

Same! It was 2 weeks long and we'd been discussing it the whole time so the actual decision took very little time. We spent most of the hour deciding if we would drag it out until lunch time as there was steak pie that day (we didn't) but we also didn't want it to look like we hadn't put enough thought into it by returning too quickly.

 

[Jason-d-h-1990]

I think what we can all agree is that we want justice for Alesha, but justice does not happen just because an individual is found guilty. It has to be the correct individual.

Imo I think he is guilty but to me I do not believe the prosecution gave an overwhelmingly persuasive argument stating so.

A lot of their evidence was able to be questioned and doubts raised.

The defendants alibi regardless of how far fetched it sounded is actually plausable when weighed up against the evidence produced. Far fetched yes, but still could have happened.

Why drop the 2nd charge, police incompetence, prosecution witnesses being contradicted by defence witnesses....all imo cause reasonable doubt.

 

[stephaniejanes]

Same! It was 2 weeks long and we'd been discussing it the whole time so the actual decision took very little time. We spent most of the hour deciding if we would drag it out until lunch time as there was steak pie that day (we didn't) but we also didn't want it to look like we hadn't put enough thought into it by returning too quickly.

So interesting to hear from past jurors. It's weird, as when you give evidence you have 15 random people staring at you and judging you (rightfully) on what you say. I can't remember any of the jurors faces and my evidence was a couple of hours. Do you remember vividly the witnesses and experience?

 

[Alyce]

Same! It was 2 weeks long and we'd been discussing it the whole time so the actual decision took very little time. We spent most of the hour deciding if we would drag it out until lunch time as there was steak pie that day (we didn't) but we also didn't want it to look like we hadn't put enough thought into it by returning too quickly.

Thank you Luna Moon ( great name btw ) that gave me a much needed chuckle to release the tension

 

[beseeingyou]

It wasn't proven who the figure was, but as you say the timings fit, and along with the additional information the jury have on locations and time taken etc it all points to the accused. Taken with everything else it adds to the case against him.

Again, could be co-incidental. The addition of phone GPS would prove this one way or another.

No I don’t think it was but how likely is it that there was another individual skulking about at that time, on that day, in that place caught on two cctv cameras and with reports that it looked like they were carrying someone.. highly unlikely I would say.

I don't think it's highly unlikely at all. There are always people out and about at strange times of the night for whatever reason. I'm from a small Scottish community and i have seen this in most villages that i've stayed in. And again, it 'looked' like they were carrying someone but the CCTV isn't clear enough to prove or disprove this.

It was never proven because cctv at that range would have to be incredibly good to get a full facial image.
However, you would have to hope, in a small place like Rothesay that, if this had been someone other than the person abducting Alesha, they would, in the interests of justice, have come forward to explain themselves.

You would, but that doesn't mean to say that some people might not come forward to explain themselves for whatever reason. A lot of people might not purely because they don't want to implicate themselves in a murder.

I know a lot of people want to bend certain aspects of this case to fit, but the harsh truth is that a lot of the details cannot be proven, or at least can be explained. Again, i'm not saying that the accused isn't necessarily guilty, i'm just not being naive in trying to make the scene fit the crime.

 

[Pooksthebear]

Beyond reasonable doubt?

Yes beyond doubt that it was either the accused or Toni.. if it had been anyone else then surely they would have come forward to be eliminated? Added with the rest of the evidence I can’t think of any other explanation

 

[Yenriac]

I think what we can all agree is that we want justice for Alesha, but justice does not happen just because an individual is found guilty. It has to be the correct individual.

Imo I think he is guilty but to me I do not believe the prosecution gave an overwhelmingly persuasive argument stating so.

A lot of their evidence was able to be questioned and doubts raised.

The defendants alibi regardless of how far fetched it sounded is actually plausable when weighed up against the evidence produced. Far fetched yes, but still could have happened.

Why drop the 2nd charge, police incompetence, prosecution witnesses being contradicted by defence witnesses....all imo cause reasonable doubt.

The charge of attempting to defeat the ends of justice by showering and disposing of clothing was withdrawn because it was never proven. The accused had a shower but none of Alesha's DNA was found in the accused's home therefore not proven. I think in the end it makes it easier for the jury to not have to consider that charge. In Scotland if you have commited any crime and the police believe you have attempted to cover it up that charge is always added. Quite often it ends up withdrawn.

 

[Neko Luna Moon]

So interesting to hear from past jurors. It's weird, as when you give evidence you have 15 random people staring at you and judging you (rightfully) on what you say. I can't remember any of the jurors faces and my evidence was a couple of hours. Do you remember vividly the witnesses and experience?

I remember one was clearly under the influence of something and slurring. She made an impact. A lot of the witnesses started recanting their statements so it was quite a lively trial. We had the accused take the stand as well and if it wasn't for all the other evidence he seemed quite convincing. We found out after of his extensive violent past and I realised that he was most likely a psychopath.

At some points it can be a bit boring but you still need to pay attention. One juror was a very immature 18 year old who took no notes and would yawn all the time. At one point she yawned so loudly the whole court room, including the judge turned round and just stared at her. I had to point out to her how disrespectful that was to the victims family.

 

[beseeingyou]

I am on the exact same wavelength as yourself The information now known about certain circumstances just makes me not 100% of a guilty

Finally, someone ! Lol.

If she is so obsessed with RM, why start a winter affair with an underage boy.

I can explain this from experience - i had an on/off girlfriend many years ago who was married and was for all intents and purposes absolutely obsessed by her husband. She was the jealous type and her behaviour at times could be very erratic. It turned out that she actually had multiple other partners on the side and this appeared to be her illogical way of soothing the discomfort she felt from being endlessly jealous of her actual partner.

As i've said all along, i think there is far more to this story that most people think.

 

[Alyce]

Again, could be co-incidental. The addition of phone GPS would prove this one way or another.



I don't think it's highly unlikely at all. There are always people out and about at strange times of the night for whatever reason. I'm from a small Scottish community and i have seen this in most villages that i've stayed in. And again, it 'looked' like they were carrying someone but the CCTV isn't clear enough to prove or disprove this.



You would, but that doesn't mean to say that some people might not come forward to explain themselves for whatever reason. A lot of people might not purely because they don't want to implicate themselves in a murder.

I know a lot of people want to bend certain aspects of this case to fit, but the harsh truth is that a lot of the details cannot be proven, or at least can be explained. Again, i'm not saying that the accused isn't necessarily guilty, i'm just not being naive in trying to make the scene fit the crime.

I agree with you in that a lot of the evidence can be explained away - to me anyway.
But I can find no other explanation for the dna on Alesha's body, other than that the accused is the one who put it there.
Part of this tragically sad story has been clouded or muddied by the stories of some of the connected parties to the case, which I think has given some weight to the doubt that some people ( not just on here ) are expressing re the guilt of the accused.
But, it is a fact of life that in any circumstance such as this, there are often details that surface, which throw a spotlight onto other parties, which might show them as less than perfect. There but for the grace of god as the saying goes.

 

[Pooksthebear]

If he is innocent, why did he wait 7 months before implicating Toni?

 

[Edinlass]

Beseeingyou I have 2 questions for you...if the accused is found guilty will you accept that decision? Will you then condemn the actions of the accused as vigorously as you have been defending them?