Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #4 *M. Bridger guilty*

[zwiebel]

What made you think they weren't? They have even been using dogs specially trained for water.

So glad they are using dogs. My aunt's case was the first time cadaver dogs were used in England and no-one knew how much they could do then. Even the police didn't think it could work. Even brought the perp to the scene and he stood over the body, messing up the scent. They still found her though and I am certain April will be found too. The whole of Wales will be searching and they'll never give up. Thank you so much for all locals helping here. This case is too upsetting for me to do more than check in to see if this little girl's been brought home yet, but she must be soon.
You're all amazing for standing beside this little one in her time of need, trying to bring her back home where she belongs.

 

[Clutchbag]

I assumed dogs were very good at following scents. I guess this means if April is dead, her body is not in the local region?

That would only be certain if cadaver dogs had searched every square inch starting from the estate she went missing from and working out in the local area and found nothing. Not sure if the police can do that, just do house to house searches, shops, churches, other buildings, without suspicion, then Im not a bobby, I dont know.

Theres been nothing in the papers about any being used apart from the ones used to detect bodies under water when they were searching the river.

Edited

 

[veggiefan]

her body may have been put into the river, close to MBs property, with the attendant risk of it being found at a later date, whereas a drive to the estuary may have been safer, allowing the body to go straight out to sea.

It would have been difficult to get to the estuary once the roadblocks were in place, and it would not have been the best solution because the estuary is wide and at the accessible edges the water is fairly shallow and the currents are slow.

The only real risk of disposal by river would be of the evidence getting stuck on one of the arches of the Dyfi bridge, but this is what the river looks like in full flood, as it was after all the rain in the weeks before. The surge of water tends to produce currents that run straight through the arches:

I cant actually see MB spending time digging near to the town or his house to bury a body, when surely it would have taken him probably less time to drive somewhere and dispose of the body, via a mine shaft, with far less chance of early discovery.

As I wrote earlier, I think he may have tried that early on the Tuesday morning when his car was absent between about 8 and 9am, but he either saw the police or heard on the radio about the closure of the A487, which leads up into the main area of mining, returned and then realised that water could do the job for him. A river in full flood often contains a great deal of debris, and as I recall LE were concentrating on roads on the Tuesday, and not on the river.

 

[Inge Jones]

It was all very rainy anyway, and if she was disposed of immediately there wouldn't be much of a cadaver odor. Dogs can smell, but they're not psychic

 

[veggiefan]

I am curious if anyone knows the percentage of people who are later found guilty of a crime, but do not confess during interrogation. (In the U.K. not the U.S.)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3087467/Number-of-people-escaping-jail-after-a-not-guilty-plea-hits-seven-year-low.html

Overall 17,184 people out of the 28,391 people who pleaded not guilty in the crown court were acquitted last year.

The proportion - 61 per cent - compares with 51 per cent in 2000.

However, remember that most of these cases will be far less serious than murder. Also note that the vast majority of those charged plead guilty from the outset: 59,162 people out of a total 87,553 defendants pleading guilty last year.

 

[Clutchbag]

It was all very rainy anyway, and if she was disposed of immediately there wouldn't be much of a cadaver odor. Dogs can smell, but they're not psychic

Do you mean if she was disposed of in the river and washed away? If so, yes. If a body is weighted down water doesn't wash the scent away otherwise there would be no need for water cadaver dogs. Buried on land with rain conditions wouldnt make a difference either.

 

[jigzy]

Quote. Veggiefan from previous thread:
"........ instead of Tywyn and the Welsh version says Dywyn!"

Just to clarify, certain letters in the Welsh language mutate when used after certain others, so 'to Tywyn' would be 'i Dywyn' in Welsh. Apart from that, we have a different alphabet to that used in English. We have extra letters like dd, ff, ll, ch, rh and don't have k, j, x, v, z. We have ^ above o, i, e and a sometimes, and lots more....

So essentially 'Dywyn' is not a mistake when used after 'i'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwelsh/pdf/welshgrammar_mutations.pdf

 

[zwiebel]

It was all very rainy anyway, and if she was disposed of immediately there wouldn't be much of a cadaver odor. Dogs can smell, but they're not psychic

Dogs can smell, and they ARE psychic compared to our senses. There are dogs who detected cancer cells in test tubes after 15 years, that had been discarded outside with rain, snow, wind and sun etc. Sorry, I cannot immediately find a link. Please don't dismiss them, they depend on where their handlers allow them to search - they are always on a lead.

 

[Clio]

They are not 100% and there are many variables; weather is one. Skills of the handler are another. Also, there are dogs trained for various duties, some cadaver-only. Hope they are using those dogs.

They were using cadaver dogs along the riverside as early as Wednesday 3rd. Sky News interviewed the dog handler and he was very plain that it was a dog trained to look for bodies and not a living person. This was the first hint I heard that they might be looking for a body rather than a living person.

 

[italianWSfan]

Someone in the previous thread has posted this sentence, apparently copied and pasted from a link, that doesnt work for me.
Can someone please tell me what this means:

"On Saturday night it became official - the forensic experts in the graveyard of the church of St Peter had been looking for clues to a killing."

Does this mean those experts actually work in/for that graveyard OR does it mean that those expert looked for clues IN/AT the graveyard?

Sorry if stupid question

Btw, I was very disappointed with the police update today. I was so looking forward to hear something about evidence or, even better, that April has been discovered... :sigh:

 

[Clio]

<rsbm>I have been wondering since day one how extensively the area around where April was last seen has been searched. Does anyone know or have any thoughts?

There was lots of news coverage around the river and then around Mount Pleasant, some coverage of woods and a little on mine shafts/quarries. I didn't see much coverage at all of the actual estate. I wonder if that was deliberate. I've said before that I think the police and the press have cooperated pretty well on this case. Perhaps there was an extensive search of the estate and the press were asked to give police some space to do this?

 

[Clutchbag]

Someone in the previous thread has posted this sentence, apparently copied and pasted from a link, that doesnt work for me.
Can someone please tell me what this means:

"On Saturday night it became official - the forensic experts in the graveyard of the church of St Peter had been looking for clues to a killing."

Does this mean those experts actually work in/for that graveyard OR does it mean that those expert looked for clues IN/AT the graveyard?

Sorry if stupid question

Btw, I was very disappointed with the police update today. I was so looking forward to hear something about evidence or, even better, that April has been discovered... :sigh:

The link was OK, it was at the bottom of the post, the link at the top from itn news is showing 404 error

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...f-as-Mark-Bridger-is-charged-with-murder.html

I assume it means police forensic officers looking for clues. never heard of forensic experts working for a church/graveyard

 

[squish]

If she had been dumped in the swollen river, because of her small size, she could have been caught anywhere, such as drains or in debris stuck to the riverbed. They need as little rain as possible to let the water go down. I think that she will turn up in several weeks/months.

I remember seeing on a crime programme about the Suffolk strangler that it's very hard to recover evidence from bodies that have been dumped in running water. One of his victims was dumped in a stream, IIRC no DNA was found and they had to sift through 2 kilograms of silt in her hair to find a relevant fibre that matched materials in his car.

 

[jigzy]

Jmo:
Arrived at parents evening in a bit of a state
Conflict at parents evening with? Left enraged/ disgraced
'History' known to LE
Spite/revenge. Psychopathic? Impulsive. Unplanned
7 year old saw the perp 'putting/ helping' her friend into vehicle and named him
7 year old says that her abducted friend knew 'them', actually meaning singular (local dialect)
No white van involvement, other than casual job at guest house meant he had 'the use of' one, but didn't use in this case (the white van in pics posted is LE/ search related vehicle)
Serious weapons (blades) involvement
"Horrific crime"
Evidence gathered from several locations
Searching for blade weapon in water
No expectation of finding 'body' - rather 'remains' in several locations. LE using rakes now instead of poles.

Jmo.

 

[italianWSfan]

The link was OK, it was at the bottom of the post, the link at the top from itn news is showing 404 error

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...f-as-Mark-Bridger-is-charged-with-murder.html

I assume it means police forensic officers looking for clues. never heard of forensic experts working for a church/graveyard

Thanks! I was thinking the same, but confused...
why would they be looking for clues in a graveyard?

 

[cluciano63]

Thanks! I was thinking the same, but confused...
why would they be looking for clues in a graveyard?

There has been a case or two in the US where a newly dug grave site was used to bury or hide a murder victim.

 

[Clutchbag]

Jmo:
Arrived at parents evening in a bit of a state
Conflict at parents evening with? Left enraged/ disgraced
'History' known to LE
Spite/revenge. Psychopathic? Impulsive. Unplanned
7 year old saw the perp 'putting/ helping' her friend into vehicle and named him
7 year old says that her abducted friend knew 'them', actually meaning singular (local dialect)
No white van involvement, other than casual job at guest house meant he had 'the use of' one, but didn't use in this case (the white van in pics posted is LE/ search related vehicle)
Serious weapons (blades) involvement
"Horrific crime"
Evidence gathered from several locations
Searching for blade weapon in water
No expectation of finding 'body' - rather 'remains' in several locations. LE using rakes now instead of poles.

Jmo.

Spite, revenge against whom?Ive never heard of a case where someone wanted revenge against someone and killed their child. Only in some horror movie. Unless there was no plan to kill but to frighten the person they wanted revenge against and something went wrong. Or he gave them to someone else in on it as well? That he just acted for a n other person for some reason but wasnt responsible for her fate and doesnt know?? Truth can bestranger than fiction sometimes.

 

[Cherwell]

Although I have a certain amount of respect for the police...I think they owe it to the parents, searchers...and all of us..to detail why they are so sure she is past salvation and is dead.

No, they don't. Their priority is to make sure her abductor/killer is brought to justice. This can be a delicate matter and means keeping certain things from the public.

 

[mikeymot]

Thanks...every night I go to bed...hoping that there is good news about April. Every morning I wake..hoping that there is good news about April. I am not, generally, interested in kids...but, this little dab is missing from Wales..and it hurts...not just me..but EVERYONE. Wales is an absolutely mindboggling place...it is spiritual...and feisty. When one of her number go missing...the whole of Wales hurts. We are all hurting now. If anyone...has ANY ideas about where this little soul may be...please, even if you think your idea is stupid...share it. I will NEVER believe that she is dead...until a body is found. My personal belief is that the monster Bridger has taken her somewhere..to someone he knows..for whatever reason (He is uncle to her 2 sisters). Maybe he wanted to make a point? I just hope and pray that this poor little dab is reuinted with her parents swiftly. You know, when someone talks about 'heartache'..it usually doesn't mean much...well, this childs' disappearance has caused all of Wales...'heartache'..and it is...a physical pain..none of us will rest until she is back home....

 

[cluciano63]

Police can't say why, due to UK laws, they have declared April's case to be a murder. It could be very specific, damning info that would be impossible for potential jurors to forget, i.e. if FOR EXAMPLE, an amount of her blood was found in his home that was not conducive to her being able to sustain life. But that is generally the sort of evidence that LE would base such a conclusion on, without a body, especially so early in an investigation.