Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #7 *M. Bridger guilty*

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Just thinking maybe the car issue is why he is pleading not guilty to abduction. If the only witness is a 7 year old child, who failed to give an accurate description of the vehicle, or identify MB (despite living in the same street for a period of time), and there are no credible forensics bearing in mind April had been in his vehicle before?

I think they may be saying that he didn't consider he had abducted her as she had been in the vehicle several times, he was very well known to the family - had been her Dad's best friend, and in the past he probably didn't ask permission before taking April and his own children somewhere.
And I still think there will be a lot more to this story once the evidence is revealed.:twocents:
 
And as for the blackout theory, JMO, but if you thought you were capable of doing something like that, i'd want to be locked up. Would MB really apply to move the trial for it to be a fair one if he thought he had 'probably' done this? I don't know, i'm so confused by it all.
 
And as for the blackout theory, JMO, but if you thought you were capable of doing something like that, i'd want to be locked up.

He's pleading not guilty to murder though. Everything brings us back to the "not guilty" pleas.
 
He's pleading not guilty to murder though. Everything brings us back to the "not guilty" pleas.

Can't admit to doing something that you can't remember doing:D

To put it a different way, ' well officer, I have no memory of dressing up as Lady Godiva, riding a shetland pony in Her Majesty's jubilee parade and causing the drum horses to shy, but as you've shown me the Polaroids I must concede that I am probably responsible'.
 
Is there legal precedent for that?? I know there is for sleep walking etc.

'Automatism' - it wasn't me, I had no control' -

The recent New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal decision of Woodbridge v R [2010] NSWCCA 185 is an example of the courts approach to the defence of automatism.
The appellant was intoxicated when she drove into an oncoming car, killing the female passenger and severely injuring the driver.
The defence case was based on the fact that the appellant's driving on the day of the accident was not a voluntary or willed act and put forth a defence of "sane automatism".

The arguments put forth highlighted that phone calls from the appelant's ex-husband caused her to go into a dissociative state and therefore rendering her behaviour involuntary on the day of the collision.
The trial Judge did not allow the issue of sane automatism to go to the jury. This issue was argued on appeal.
The distinction between "sane automatism" and "insane automatism" is important and was highlighted in R v Radford (1985) 42 SARS 266 at 276:

· Insane automatism refers to the reaction of an unsound mind to its own delusions or to external stimuli.

· Sane automatism refers to the reaction of a sound mind to external stimuli including stress-producing factors.

It was decided on appeal that the psychologists identified that the phone calls from the ex-husband as the main trigger for the automatism suggests that the appellant's mind was unsound rather than sound. The nature of the phone calls received from the husband were not so extraordinary and extreme to assume that a completely healthy mind would have been so affected as to react in the way in which the appellant did.

http://criminallawcentre.com.au/Defence_of_Automatism

I think he might be going for this -'diminished responsibility'

Diminished responsibility is one of three special defences which exist solely for the offence of murder. It is contained in the Homicide Act 1957 as modified by the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. Where the defence of diminished responsibility is successfully pleaded, it has the effect of reducing a murder conviction to manslaughter. The three special defences of diminished responsibility, loss of control and suicide pact differ from general defences in that they do not apply to all crimes and also the effect is to reduce criminal liability rather than to absolve the defendant from liability completely.

Diminished responsibility is set out in s.2 of the Homicide Act 1957 as ammended by s.52 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. To rely on the defence, the defendant must be able to demonstrate the following:
1.An abnormality of mental functioning caused by a recognised medical condition.
2.Which provides an explanation for the defendant’s acts or omissions in being party to the killing.
3.Which substantially impaired his/her mental ability to either:
a) Understand the nature of their conduct or

b) Form a rational judgment or

c) Exercise self–control

1. Abnormality of the mental functioning caused by a recognised mental condition.

The question of whether the defendant is suffering from an abnormality of the mental functioning is for the jury to decide after hearing medical evidence. The jury are not bound to follow medical opinion it is ultimately their decision as to whether the defence should succeed. A notorious example of the jury ignoring medical opinion was present in the trial of Peter Sutcliffe (the Yorkshire ripper) where the medical opinion was unanimous that the defendant was a paranoid schizophrenic, yet the jury refused to allow him the defence. Abnormality of the mental functioning is assessed by reference to what a reasonable man would regard as abnormal. It has a wide meaning and encompasses the inability to exercise will power and control.

2. The abnormality must provide an explanation for D’s act or omission in being party to the killing.

3.Which substantially impaired his/her mental ability

The defendant must show that the abnormality of the mind must have substantially impaired his mental ability to either:

•Understand the nature of their conduct or
•Form a rational judgment or
•To exercise self –control


http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Diminished-responsibility.php


ETA: either of the above +/- 'disassociative amnesia'
 
This also makes interesting reading: alcohol intoxication as grounds for diminished responsibility.

Yes, and from that link:

The Court of Appeal .... ruled that voluntary acute intoxication, whether from alcohol or other substance, is not capable of founding diminished responsibility.

This was discussed in the Joanna Yeates threads, so is familiar ground to those who followed that case. Of course so far it is only conjecture that alcohol may have played a part here.

As always, it's important to stick to information on English law* and not that from other countries. The CPS site is useful for reference.

*applies also in Wales.
 
Lets not forget he's pleaded not guilty to abduction. So, how will he explain that away? He had permission, he had implied permission, he did not take her in his car, he had parental rights (rumour around SN sites).

The Child Abduction Act 1984, section 2, includes a number of defences and qualifications. One is "lawful authority" when the parents of a child were not married at the time of the child's birth and "at the time of the alleged offence, [the abductor] believed, on reasonable grounds, that he was the child’s father".

I don't know if the Jones' were married before April's birth but, if they were not, that could be a possible defence for MB to use (I won't get into rumours, but it does seem that relationships were very complex in that extended family).

Another is that the act defines abduction as an offence if the child is taken "without lawful authority or reasonable excuse".

I guess that MB coukd argue that April was very young to be outdoors as it was getting dark and, since he knew her, he had "reasonable excuse" to take her home or to a place of safety (and, of course, something terrible intervened).

Just speculation on my part, but I think that some such technicality could be used to support the not-guilty plea to the abduction charge.

The penalty for abduction is a maximum of 7 years, but usually much less if features such as violence, sexual motives and removal to a foreign country are not involved (and, without a body, it's unlikely that any of those can be proved).

With regard to the judge allowing the press to report that, while pleading not guilty, MB will accept "probable responsibility" for April's death, I think is simply the result of the purpose of a plea hearing being to show how the plea, if entered, will impact on the hearing, particularly in terms of length. In this case, the plea is a "modified not guilty", and so the court has allowed it to be expressed in more detail than normal.
 
He is saying he is probably responsible for her death, but not guilty to abduction or concealment. This is driving my brain a bit crazy.
If he handed April over to others (paedophiles) who killed her. Then he is probably responsible for her death.
 
If he handed April over to others (paedophiles) who killed her. Then he is probably responsible for her death.

Yes understand where you are coming from and your first instincts at the time this initially happened.
 
If he handed April over to others (paedophiles) who killed her. Then he is probably responsible for her death.

If he knowingly did so, then he could hardly plead 'not guilty' to the abduction charge.
 
If he knowingly did so, then he could hardly plead 'not guilty' to the abduction charge.

A real question...in the US people plead "not guilty" even when caught on tape. Are suspects not allowed to plead NG in the UK under certain circumstances? I mean, how would anyone know if they are lying or not? NG is the most common plea here, always, unless a deal in the suspect's favor is offered.
 
A real question...in the US people plead "not guilty" even when caught on tape. Are suspects not allowed to plead NG in the UK under certain circumstances? I mean, how would anyone know if they are lying or not? NG is the most common plea here, always, unless a deal in the suspect's favor is offered.

Of course they can plead "not guilty", but we are trying to figure out what may feasibly have happened here.

Perhaps this post by veggiefan will be helpful in giving some context. He suggests some reasons why a NG plea to the abduction charge might be believable.

The Child Abduction Act 1984, section 2, includes a number of defences and qualifications. One is "lawful authority" when the parents of a child were not married at the time of the child's birth and "at the time of the alleged offence, [the abductor] believed, on reasonable grounds, that he was the child’s father".

I don't know if the Jones' were married before April's birth but, if they were not, that could be a possible defence for MB to use (I won't get into rumours, but it does seem that relationships were very complex in that extended family).

Another is that the act defines abduction as an offence if the child is taken "without lawful authority or reasonable excuse".

I guess that MB could argue that April was very young to be outdoors as it was getting dark and, since he knew her, he had "reasonable excuse" to take her home or to a place of safety (and, of course, something terrible intervened).

Just speculation on my part, but I think that some such technicality could be used to support the not-guilty plea to the abduction charge.

The penalty for abduction is a maximum of 7 years, but usually much less if features such as violence, sexual motives and removal to a foreign country are not involved (and, without a body, it's unlikely that any of those can be proved).
 
if theres no body .. i guess he can plead not guilty of killing her.. surely theres not 100% proof shes dead ( this as a parent i would never cope with) i would be interested to see her birth certificate ... this would give reasoning to not being abducted. (i think )
 
I think the "100% proof that she's dead" could only come - barring discovery of her body before trial - from discovery of an abundance of blood of her DNA type, the loss of which would guarantee death, or a similar amount of body tissue, likewise.
 
I think the "100% proof that she's dead" could only come - barring discovery of her body before trial - from discovery of an abundance of blood of her DNA type, the loss of which would guarantee death, or a similar amount of body tissue, likewise.

like an internal body organ....or something similar. Or would that be akin to finding a body? I suppose blood would also count as a body part. or a tooth?
Perhaps they found her blood stained clothing. or a particle of it.
 
If he knowingly did so, then he could hardly plead 'not guilty' to the abduction charge.
Perhaps he did so with permission, not knowing they were paedophiles, or people who would murder? Perhaps he had permission to take April, but got drunk and fell asleep. April wondered off?
 
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