GUILTY UK - Brianna Ghey, 16, murdered in Culcheth Linear Park, Feb 2023 *2 teenagers charged*

[Lucy6226]

I'm not sure if we're allowed to debate whether or not this was a trans gender hate crime? But on a very general note, I remember at school there was always bullying and the poor bullied child was usually an easy target (overweight, too clever, not very intelligent, or any other feature that made them stand out). I was at school in the 1980s and I cannot even imagine what would have happened if a child had started coming to school dressed as a different gender, the bullying would have been unimaginable - not for trans reasons per se but simply for being different. Maybe children now accept this but in my day it would have taken a lot of courage for Brianna to be trans gender - I used to dread going into school after having a new haircut!

So, I'm just curious, those with teenage children, or who work with them, is this something that is easily accepted amongst young people nowadays?

(for added context, my school was v religious so we weren't allowed to wear dresses more than 2 inches above the knee, and boys weren't allowed hair touching their collar, amongst many other rules, so my experience might not be what others experienced in the UK in the 1980s)

In my experience as a mother and a Social Worker, young people are very open to gender and different sexualities. That's not to say that there wouldn't still bullying, but it's not unheard of for there to be more than a couple of transgender young people in a school. All moo

 

[Dotta]

"What happened to Brianna Ghey? ​

Full timeline of events surrounding the transgender teen's shocking murder."​

What happened to Brianna Ghey? Timeline of events surrounding murder

Brianna was tragically stabbed to death on Saturday, February 11, in a park in Warrington. A boy and a girl, both 15, have been charged with her murder ahead of a November trial.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Legally Bland]

I'm not sure if we're allowed to debate whether or not this was a trans gender hate crime? But on a very general note, I remember at school there was always bullying and the poor bullied child was usually an easy target (overweight, too clever, not very intelligent, or any other feature that made them stand out). I was at school in the 1980s and I cannot even imagine what would have happened if a child had started coming to school dressed as a different gender, the bullying would have been unimaginable - not for trans reasons per se but simply for being different. Maybe children now accept this but in my day it would have taken a lot of courage for Brianna to be trans gender - I used to dread going into school after having a new haircut!

So, I'm just curious, those with teenage children, or who work with them, is this something that is easily accepted amongst young people nowadays?

(for added context, my school was v religious so we weren't allowed to wear dresses more than 2 inches above the knee, and boys weren't allowed hair touching their collar, amongst many other rules, so my experience might not be what others experienced in the UK in the 1980s)

Brianna's Mum said she wasn't being bullied.

[Head teacher] Ms Mills added: "I spoke again to Brianna's mum who confirmed that Brianna was not bullied at Birchwood and always felt well supported by the school and she gave me permission to share this with you all.

Brianna Ghey: Schoolgirl was 'not bullied' at Birchwood High School

BIRCHWOOD High School student Brianna Ghey 'was not bullied' at her high school before her murder.

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

But that's not to say things weren't awkward. Boy O said he hadn't talked to her since she was 11, although I guess that may not be because of gender identity, I may be making a massive assumption there. And he did appear genuinely upset.

O: “I’m *advertiser censored**ing crying my eyes out, I’m worried sick. Why’s your mate just been stabbed?”

X: “My friend was spamming me with news and saying check the news. It’s Brianna who got killed.”

[...]

O: “I knew her since she was five. I didn’t talk to her since she was 11 pretty much. I’m just a bit depressed. I saw them growing up and stuff.”

X: “It’s going to be okay. I’m here for you baby xx”

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[Kasmeer]

But that's not to say things weren't awkward. Boy O said he hadn't talked to her since she was 11, although I guess that may not be because of gender identity, I may be making a massive assumption there. And he did appear genuinely upset.

O: “I knew her since she was five. I didn’t talk to her since she was 11 pretty much. I’m just a bit depressed. I saw them growing up and stuff.”

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

(Snipped for focus) They could just have gone to different schools, 11 is typically about the age kids move up to secondary school, right? (I went to school in Scotland and we were all 10-11 when we moved up, I think England is similar). Where I lived there was only one secondary school but in a city, I'm guessing there's a good chance primary school friends could end up separated and lose touch if they weren't close neighbours.

As to the hate crime aspect, I'm not sure; I'd initially assumed hate crime after Brianna's background came out but with the messages we've heard so far... I'm more inclined to go with just plain dangerous. Obviously Y deliberately misgendered her and used hateful language, but it's not unusual for teenagers to try to be "edgy" using offensive terms without real malice behind them. Of course the fact that Brianna ended up murdered would make it seem a whole lot less benign, so I'm on the fence with him, while X just seems to have had hate for or expressed desire to kill many different people, regardless of any other factors.

Edit: And the above regarding hate crimes is only if found guilty, of course, I'm not assuming or implying guilt!

 

[Legally Bland]

(Snipped for focus) They could just have gone to different schools, 11 is typically about the age kids move up to secondary school, right? (I went to school in Scotland and we were all 10-11 when we moved up, I think England is similar). Where I lived there was only one secondary school but in a city, I'm guessing there's a good chance primary school friends could end up separated and lose touch if they weren't close neighbours.

As to the hate crime aspect, I'm not sure; I'd initially assumed hate crime after Brianna's background came out but with the messages we've heard so far... I'm more inclined to go with just plain dangerous. Obviously Y deliberately misgendered her and used hateful language, but it's not unusual for teenagers to try to be "edgy" using offensive terms without real malice behind them. Of course the fact that Brianna ended up murdered would make it seem a whole lot less benign, so I'm on the fence with him, while X just seems to have had hate for or expressed desire to kill many different people, regardless of any other factors.

Edit: And the above regarding hate crimes is only if found guilty, of course, I'm not assuming or implying guilt!

Yeah, I've been regretting posting that as there's so many reasons why their paths may have stopped crossing.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

So, I'm just curious, those with teenage children, or who work with them, is this something that is easily accepted amongst young people nowadays?

IMO it depends on the school/classmates, but there is a boy at my son's school and he says people seem to have accepted his name/appearance change without an issue. I am not sure who explained it to his class or how they explained it, but people weren't shocked and supposedly don't bully him after the change.

 

[Honeybirdette]

I think if it wasn’t brianna, it would have been someone else. So in that sense, im not sure you can consider this a hate crime per se.
It Doesn’t surprise me it’s not being prosecuted as one because imo it would be very very difficult to prove in this case.
Girl x had allegedly wanted to murder boy e originally, and it’s only when boy e blocked her, she moved on to Brianna. If Briana had not turned up, they would have probably moved onto boy M or boy R.

 

[Detective_Popcorn]

I think if it wasn’t brianna, it would have been someone else. So in that sense, im not sure you can consider this a hate crime per se.
It Doesn’t surprise me it’s not being prosecuted as one because imo it would be very very difficult to prove in this case.
Girl x had allegedly wanted to murder boy e originally, and it’s only when boy e blocked her, she moved on to Brianna. If Briana had not turned up, they would have probably moved onto boy M or boy R.

Agreed. Some people just reduce trans people to their trans-ness, and refuse to see anything about them beyond this. "The victim was trans, ergo this was a hate crime against trans people." Forgetting that trans people are also PEOPLE and can be victims of crime just as much as anyone else.

The evidence presented by the prosecution indicated that Brianna was not the first or last potential victim that X and Y allegedly targeted. Ultimately, and tragically, I think it was Brianna's vulnerability and trusting nature - rather than the fact of her being trans per se - that led to her being the one in the wrong place at the wrong time, in the hands of the wrong people.
There may be an argument that as a young trans person she was inherently more vulnerable, looking for acceptance etc.... sadly it seems she was just the softest target X and Y were able to manipulate, lure and attack.

 

[Alyce]

dbm

 

[Alyce]

www.itv.com

 

[Alyce]

10:24Ellen Kirwin

Day 6 - Monday, December 4​

Good morning from Manchester Crown Court.
The trial is due to continue for a second week today.
Just to remind you of the counsel in the case.
Deanna Heer KC prosecutes, assisted by Cheryl Mottram.
Richard Pratt KC defends Girl X, with Sarah Holt as junior counsel.
Boy Y will be represented by Richard Littler KC and Steven Swift.
Mrs Justice Yip will be presiding over the trial.

• 10:24Ellen Kirwin
  

  Justice Yip enters​

  Justice Yip enters and will briefly discuss legal matters with counsel.
  
  
• Live court updates as Brianna Ghey murder trial continues

 

[mrjitty]

It's interesting that the accused were arrested immediately rather than bought in as witnesses. I wonder what drove that approach.

 

[Honeybirdette]

It's interesting that the accused were arrested immediately rather than bought in as witnesses. I wonder what drove that approach.

I think there was a witness wasn’t there? The dog walker and her husband who found Brianna saw a teenage boy and girl crouched over the body (they thought it was a dog at first, or some rubbish) and then they seen the dog walker and ran off. As the dog walker got closer, she realised it was a body.
She was able to describe both suspects to police really clearly including their clothes

 

[Legally Bland]

It's interesting that the accused were arrested immediately rather than bought in as witnesses. I wonder what drove that approach.

I think there's a gap in the timeline at the moment. As soon as Brianna was identified they'd have known she was with X via Brianna's Mum, I can only think the police decided to investigate X rather than speak to her.

 

[mrjitty]

I think there's a gap in the timeline at the moment. As soon as Brianna was identified they'd have known she was with X via Brianna's Mum, I can only think the police decided to investigate X rather than speak to her.

Yes that is my thought - we can't see what police worked on in that first 24 hours - presumably circumstances required that they were arrested under caution.

 

[mrjitty]

So Boy Y had this to say about Girl X in his interview. I guess this will be the key question at trial. In her interview, Girl X said the victim left.

Y: “I was invited to go to Culcheth by Girl X. She invited along her friend brianna. We met up in Culcheth. We got some food from Sainsburys and waited for Brianna to get off the bus. We walked to the forest. I turned away to go to the toilet on a tree. When I turned back around I saw Girl X stabbing Brianna. I went over to check if Brianna was alive. I put my hands on her and got blood all over them. I panicked and went with Girl X.”

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

So Boy Y had this to say about Girl X in his interview. I guess this will be the key question at trial. In her interview, Girl X said the victim left.

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

But wasn't his knife found at home with (alleged) blood of the victim?

But
I'm not sure if girl x also (allegedly) had her own knife.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

As I understand it, this is a classic 'cut throat' defence case where they accuse each other of doing it. I am not sure how counsel for Girl X will claim that it was actually Boy Y as she did not claim it in her pre-trial interviews. Perhaps based on the knife forensics?

 

[bluetit]

It's interesting that the accused were arrested immediately rather than bought in as witnesses. I wonder what drove that approach.

So Boy Y had this to say about Girl X in his interview. I guess this will be the key question at trial. In her interview, Girl X said the victim left.

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

his clothes were covered in her blood. He’s full of it.

But wasn't his knife found at home with (alleged) blood of the victim?

But
I'm not sure if girl x also (allegedly) had her own knife.

JMO

she said she had a ‘chefs blade’ in messages to boy Y. She said she wanted to stab Brianna “at least once cos it will be fun lol”. I don’t know if she ever did, or if she even bought it along. When she was arrested the police filmed some clothing in a washing machine on their body camera, but I don’t know if this was the clothing she was wearing. Boy y said today he didn’t know if she had any blood on her. He did have blood on his clothes and that knife they found at his home.

 

[Dotta]

With so many (alleged) stabs, I doubt there was 1 perp.

JMO