Recovered/Located UK - Cardiff - 3 Women & 2 Men Missing, leaving nightclub approx 2am, Newport, 4 March 2023

[x44]

hmm ok thanks

As you hint that might all be a bit "unfortunate" IF it is the same person (name and ages do match) and IF it was the said named person who was driving this vehicle.

 

[3point5]

I know, and we aren't too far apart on this. I fully get what you're saying. But there are workflows and processes that the police are meant to work through, and then they apply discretion at certain junctures. According to those, it was most definitely a missing persons case - going beyond the unusual into the problematic - it's just that the police didn't seem to want to listen to the parents enough while applying their discretion, and try to understand that for those girls at least it was a highly unusual thing for all three to be missing at the same time.

Missing Persons Risk = context + background. The system allows for a million different circumstances to shape the risk grade, but if discretion ends up being filtered through a narrow-sighted worldview of the officers involved, the grade is compromised by those worldviews/prejudices.

You're right, I don't think were too far apart in our thinking. I just feel we're going too much off info we don't know.

The sun have said that a mother said that. We have no idea which mum that was, and we have no idea what was actualy said as they've not quoted her directly.

Look at how much criticism the Lancashire police took because of poor MSM reporting in the Nicola Bulley case. Then when we found out what they'd actually done and the MSM had just musreported, we ended up with egg on our face.

We don't know know what happened yet in this case, so I'm just reluctant to criticise the police too much when we're not working with the full info.

E2A: just to add as well, "this is so unlike them" almost feels like a bit of a trope at this point. Any criminal case you end up with people saying "this is so unlike such and such to do".sadly when the full facts come out, you often find it wasn't as unusual as those close to them thought. I know that's more prevalant in criminal cases than missing persons cases, but I think there's similarities there with these types of cases.

 

[UK Girl]

You're right, I don't think were too far apart in our thinking. I just feel we're going too much off info we don't know.

The sun have said that a mother said that. We have no idea which mum that was, and we have no idea what was actualy said as they've not quoted her directly.

Look at how much criticism the Lancashire police took because of poor MSM reporting in the Nicola Bulley case. Then when we found out what they'd actually done and the MSM had just musreported, we ended up with egg on our face.

We don't know know what happened yet in this case, so I'm just reluctant to criticise the police too much when we're not working with the full info.

E2A: just to add as well, "this is so unlike them" almost feels like a bit of a trope at this point. Any criminal case you end up with people saying "this is so unlike such and such to do".sadly when the full facts come out, you often find it wasn't as unusual as those close to them thought. I know that's more prevalant in criminal cases than missing persons cases, but I think there's similarities there with these types of cases.

the mother has been named

 

[3point5]

the mother has been named

Thanks. Looks like the articles been updated. I shouldn't have been lazy and assumed they still hadn't named her.

Have they added the actual quote of what she said yet?

 

[3point5]

Thanks. Looks like the articles been updated. I shouldn't have been lazy and assumed they still hadn't named her.

Have they added the actual quote of what she said yet?

I stopped being lazy. Looks like the sun have taken extracts from a Daily Mail article. I'll keep schtum for the time being out of respect, but I'll be interested to see how aligned that DM article and what happened in reality end up being once the IOPC have worked their magic.

 

[UK Girl]

Thanks. Looks like the articles been updated. I shouldn't have been lazy and assumed they still hadn't named her.

Have they added the actual quote of what she said yet?No

Thanks. Looks like the articles been updated. I shouldn't have been lazy and assumed they still hadn't named her.

Have they added the actual quote of what she said yet?

Not really just this Missing woman's mum says cops 'said STOP ringing & assumed she was hungover'

its hard because I get the 24 hour rule but when five people are missing and none are answering the phone it is more concerning and also its horrible to think had the police found them earlier would more have survived?

The Mail article is here Three bodies found in hunt for three women, two men who went missing

 

[wizardizzo76]

I do know the roundabout, but don't drive it every week and can't remember if there's speed bumps. Biggest thing in my mind is that it's a road which takes you from 70 to 30mph limit quite quickly with a bit of a bend in the road followed by a roundabout. They appear to have come off at the bend

It looks like they've come off at the area highlighted in orange on this screenshot. It's not uncommon for fake speed bump marks to be painted on the road, and I can't see (or remember) any real speed bumps. I'd probably remember too as it's easy to go a bit too fast along there and the suspension on one of my cars is dire.

View attachment 407364

It's these markings on the road on Google maps that made me think this, and the fact they are on several exits to the roundabout but maybe they are remnants post roadworks

 

[Normal Norm]

It's these markings on the road on Google maps that made me think this, and the fact they are on several exits to the roundabout but maybe they are remnants post roadworks

Well spotted. I would say they are definitely speed bumps. Not particularly gentle ones, either.

 

[Amonet]

There isn't a 24-hour rule. Each case depends on the individual circumstances but there isn't a requirement in any case to wait 24 hours before making a report, and police will not automatically wait 24 hours before beginning to investigate.

In this case I think they couldn't immediately put out a helicopter. It would have taken them time to find out that the girls met up with the guys and to learn more about the course of the evening and in which vehicle they were likely travelling in, and between which locations they were likely travelling. Only as that info become evident would it be helpful to put out the helicopter.

Without the vehicle being visible from the road, it was always going to take time to find them. This is a horrifically long time, and the ones who survived the initial crash would have been deteriorating through that period

I think we really need to step back and wait for the inquests and inquiry to be completed before apportioning blame. A lot of things will have to be examined, including how the mother felt she was being talked to and treated by police, and at what point each decision was made. Where there are lessons to be learned, then I hope that will be ascertained and changes put into place for future incidents.

 

[JennieM]

Could it a jurisdiction thing? As in the women fall under Gwent police but the men do not, and that why it’s run as 3 women, then 2 men later in the post? Their Facebook post is similar

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=616155607226221&id=100064953601343

I think that's exactly it.

 

[JennieM]

Thanks. Looks like the articles been updated. I shouldn't have been lazy and assumed they still hadn't named her.

Have they added the actual quote of what she said yet?

Is this what you are looking for? This is from my post yesterday #117



The mother of a woman missing with two of her childhood friends in South Wales has claimed police officers told her to 'stop ringing' for updates, leading her to take the search into her own hands along with other friends and relatives.

She told the Daily Mail: 'They didn't seem to care. I had to drive to Cardiff to knock on doors myself because they were doing sod all. They just didn't seem to think didn't think it was worth investigating. It was so frustrating.

'I think they assumed that Sophie was hungover somewhere, but she's a sensible girl who works in a bank and hasn't taken a day off for three years.

'She's not someone who's out clubbing in Cardiff all the time. On Friday nights she's more likely to be babysitting so other people can go out. She wouldn't just vanish like this unless something was wrong.

'The police asked me to stop ringing but at the end of the day I'm a mum I'm going to worry. Her little sister is worrying too, she's only 13 and she's wondering where Sophie is.'

Gwent Police have been contacted for comment.

EXCLUSIVE: Mum told to 'STOP RINGING' police as five missing in Wales​

 

[Lincoln34]

I think that's exactly it.

Could well be a jurisdiction issue. One of the key cases on the police’s duty of care - Michael v Chief Constable of South Wales - Supreme Court press summary - link Here - partially turned on the fact the the victim’s call for urgent help went to Gwent police, but the call was actioned by South Wales Police, who were not told about the threat to life . Very sad case.

 

[everybodhi]

It must be a very tough line for police between allowing people to do what they want (e.g., go sleep at someone else's house and not call your family) and assuming something bad has happened.

People would also complain if the police clumsily broke into every place a phone signal from a person lead them to after only being missing a couple of days, because we all know most missing persons stories do end and they do end well, with the person being found.

It is unusual cases like this where it must be very hard to decide when to go beyond the line of respecting someone's privacy and right to their own life (including not contacting their family) and when to set up to follow phone signals or whatever led them to this outcome.

That's not to mention the cost of diving head in to every single missing person's case, just the confusing ethics around it all. The cost alone would mean it's not possible to give the same attention to every single case of a person missing say, over 24 hours.

Yeah, without being connected to mental health issues or abusive situations it’s understandable to not immediately rate adults who are out having fun and not coming home straight away as high risk.
There’s no way to foresee the rare instance of a horrible accident, unseen.

Charity Missing People says someone is reported missing every 90 seconds in the UK,170,000 people are reported missing every year. 75% of adults are found in 24 hours and 85% in 2 days.

Key information and statistics about missing - Missing People

 

[MoominMama222]

Of course it’s unusual, if the parents of the three girls insist it is highly unusual behaviour, all sets of parents independently. Plus if they’re usually on social media 24/7 that is also a sign the police should have taken into account. Just a wee bit more risk aversion would have sped this up.

Yes, I think context should matter in these cases. With young people being online and in touch 24/7 it seems to me to be very rare for someone to go radio-silent for long at all. And for all three to do so? When they don't have a history of that at all? That should have jump-started concern with the police. Of course, adults have a right to privacy, but they also trust public safety officials to respond if they are in danger or hurt if warnings go out from family and friends who know their baseline and can speak on their behalf that something is wrong.

 

[JennieM]

Something needs to be said about the Daily Mail's coverage last night, which decided to change its heading - which was also the main story on their website at the time - from 5 missing people to 3 women missing while efforts were being made to recover the five young people from the car and the Mail must have been aware of this. To me the change in the heading's information would suggest an implication and I can only imagine they did it for clicks, which is pretty low.

 

[NextSprint]

Is this what you are looking for? This is from my post yesterday #117



The mother of a woman missing with two of her childhood friends in South Wales has claimed police officers told her to 'stop ringing' for updates, leading her to take the search into her own hands along with other friends and relatives.

She told the Daily Mail: 'They didn't seem to care. I had to drive to Cardiff to knock on doors myself because they were doing sod all. They just didn't seem to think didn't think it was worth investigating. It was so frustrating.

'I think they assumed that Sophie was hungover somewhere, but she's a sensible girl who works in a bank and hasn't taken a day off for three years.

'She's not someone who's out clubbing in Cardiff all the time. On Friday nights she's more likely to be babysitting so other people can go out. She wouldn't just vanish like this unless something was wrong.

'The police asked me to stop ringing but at the end of the day I'm a mum I'm going to worry. Her little sister is worrying too, she's only 13 and she's wondering where Sophie is.'

Gwent Police have been contacted for comment.

EXCLUSIVE: Mum told to 'STOP RINGING' police as five missing in Wales​

It's this that bothers me:

'I think they assumed that Sophie was hungover somewhere, but she's a sensible girl who works in a bank and hasn't taken a day off for three years.

'She's not someone who's out clubbing in Cardiff all the time. On Friday nights she's more likely to be babysitting so other people can go out. She wouldn't just vanish like this unless something was wrong.

Misper investigations are meant to be highly sensitive to individual context and that individual circumstances of the missing person(s). But it sounds like Gwent rolled their eyes a bit, and the problem is inertia inside police forces. All humans are subject to psychological blind spots or prejudices, but this happens so much. Leah Croucher, the police said for at least a year they thought no harm had come to her and hinted she was just a young woman who'd gone off, and it turns out she was kidnapped and dead in an attic inside their "zone of interest" all along.

 

[JennieM]

Condolences to the three families who lost their loved ones at such a young age, I hope they didn't suffer. I hope the two young people who are being treated at hospital can make a full recovery and be strong psychologically.

 

[NextSprint]

Yes, I think context should matter in these cases. With young people being online and in touch 24/7 it seems to me to be very rare for someone to go radio-silent for long at all. And for all three to do so? When they don't have a history of that at all? That should have jump-started concern with the police. Of course, adults have a right to privacy, but they also trust public safety officials to respond if they are in danger or hurt if warnings go out from family and friends who know their baseline and can speak on their behalf that something is wrong.

Perhaps in the social media age, going completely quiet on social when it's out of the ordinary should be a flag in itself. A bit like if someone hasn't called, or if someone hasn't picked their kids up from school, along those lines but obviously in a slightly different way.

 

[Nikynoo]

Something needs to be said about the Daily Mail's coverage last night, which decided to change its heading - which was also the main story on their website at the time - from 5 missing people to 3 women missing while efforts were being made to recover the five young people from the car and the Mail must have been aware of this. To me the change in the heading's information would suggest an implication and I can only imagine they did it for clicks, which is pretty low.

I saw the news when I woke this morning and reading the DMs headline I thought that the 3 bodies found indicated that the girls had been murdered. The headline was shown alongside the pictures of the three girls. It was only after reading the article that it became clear what the true story was.

 

[JennieM]

I saw the news when I woke this morning and reading the DMs headline I thought that the 3 bodies found indicated that the girls had been murdered. The headline was shown alongside the pictures of the three girls. It was only after reading the article that it became clear what the true story was.

I can definitely see why you thought that and many people must have thought the same. The problem is that not everyone clicks on the article to read and assumptions are easily made.

At some point last night I started thinking they found the car with only the 3 girls inside and police was trying to find the two men who were maybe on the run.

The Daily Mail is so suggestive and pretty despicable because it chooses to monetise on people's suffering and pain.