GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #1

[mrjitty]

Don't know if these links are helpful to any one - always good to raise awareness:

https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/recognising-domestic-abuse/

http://www.refuge.org.uk/about-domestic-violence/barriers-to-leaving/

Often men like IS behave start the relationship being kind, gentle, emotionally available etc - this is what makes the victim fall for the perp. The behaviour then changes and the behaviour becomes abusive. But outside of the home and to onlookers generally the perp is seen as a charming kind, generous person - this makes the victim think they are the problem.

The freedom programme is very good at understanding how these men/women think and how the cycle works/how it can be broken.

Exactly

And in the insights we have into Helen's state in her final months - I think we can see that playing out in her uncertainty and confusion about what was happening to her.

But now we know he was driving all of this

So in a way I can easily believe the killing was not planned (though it may have been part of his fantasy).

I suspect he instead went too far - we see that all the time with abusers.

 

[ColourPurple]

I think it's a possibility that he intended to drug Helen enough to get control of the money, do what he wanted with it and yes, keep her feeling not quite right for as long as ...

Is that as bad as planning to murder her? That would be subjective. I would say not but you or the next person may think differently.

As he stood to gain nothing financially by marrying Helen and as the wording of the 2015 POA talks of what would happen if Helen were unfit to manage her own finances Ido wonder if he intended to drug her enough to make her unfit to manage her finances so that he could invoke the POA and have access to all her finances. The only downside being her brother also had POA (maybe he was his next target).

But I equally think it could be one of at least two other scenarios...

1: That he planned all along to conceal her body in the cess pit, pretend she was missing, invoke POA and live off her money (and the standing order) until she could officially be declared dead and that the drugs were just a way to make her compliant or unconscious enough to get her into the cess pit.

2: That something happened that day that made him lose control and suffocate Helen. Maybe like she'd hinted at before, she told him she wanted them to move to London and leave the boys in a flat in Royston. Maybe she was drugged but came round to find him transfering money from her account or forging her signature on legal documents. Maybe she just mentioned the upcoming wedding and he realised there was no way he could get out of the wedding plans and snapped.

One scenario I do rule out is the ridiculous Joe and Nick fairytale and if they go down the line of insisting he couldn't have moved Helen or the cesspit cover himself then I will assume another occupant of the house helped him with that

 

[Alyce]

But isn't that just as bad? Wouldn't he have had to have kept her in a drugged state for him to continue managing her affairs? As once he stopped the drugs, helen would eventually regain a clear mind and surely take back control of her finances. I can't see she would have allowed him just to carry on, once she was able to manage them herself. This is all allegedly and theoretical of course.


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I feel he would have to keep on giving her the drugs. I think I read that the drug is cumulative, so, over time, the build up in Helen's system would mean he did not have to worry about regular doses, just a now and then top up.
This would keep her below par and although she would be functioning, she would be generally tired, unable to concentrate and probably would even welcome IS * helping out *.

I hope, however, that he would have been caught out, because from everything I have read, Helen had good friends and family and they would eventually have wanted to know what had happened to the Helen they knew.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm not sure that feeding her the sleeping tablets would have had sufficient effect on her mental state to invoke POA.
Also it would not have applied if she was missing, but he may not have realised that.

One scenario I do rule out is the ridiculous Joe and Nick fairytale and if they go down the line of insisting he couldn't have moved Helen or the cesspit cover himself then I will assume another occupant of the house helped him with that

Yes.

I don't doubt that he was capable of doing it by himself though.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Exactly

And in the insights we have into Helen's state in her final months - I think we can see that playing out in her uncertainty and confusion about what was happening to her.

But now we know he was driving all of this

So in a way I can easily believe the killing was not planned (though it may have been part of his fantasy).

I suspect he instead went too far - we see that all the time with abusers.

I too think it may have been an accident but, nonetheless, it is still murder. There is the possibility that Helen died from respiratory depression caused by the cumulative effect of sleeping drugs. She was up and around that morning. Maybe he dosed her mid morning tea (or however he was dosing her) and she collapsed. He would have to think very quickly because at least one of the sons was due home that evening. If he intended to murder her he would have to plan how to move her body to any other place and be sure she (and Boris) would not be found. That takes more than a little thought. The pit was a godsend for him.

OR maybe he did intend to murder her and dump her and Boris in the pit. Will we ever know?

 

[Duchy]

If he's into inventions and gadgets, then he'll have had no trouble in engineering a way to get that manhole cover off.

You're nicked, mate :cop: :behindbar

That is what went through my mind. Was trying to think of a way of putting it into words, then read this post.

 

[Legally Bland]

I was having internet problems yesterday, so not sure if the second part of the call was posted. Still can't see it on Cambridge News, but both parts are here:

http://www.kentlive.news/hear-the-c...-her-missing/story-30076042-detail/story.html

Sorry if already posted.

 

[ColourPurple]

I'm not sure that feeding her the sleeping tablets would have had sufficient effect on her mental state to invoke POA.
Also it would not have applied if she was missing, but he may not have realised that.

.

I don't think he did realise as he tried to invoke it.

The side effects of Zopliclone could certainly be mistaken for mental illness if nobody (including the person themselves) was aware that the person was taking it..."aggressiveness, confusion, depression, amnesia, hallucinations"are a few that are listed.

Its also possible that she'd been unwittingly taking them with alcohol. Her sister mentioned she liked a pre lunch tipple (sherry was it?)

then there's the possible side effects of a sudden withdrawal if she'd become dependent ( no idea if this was the case)

sudden withdrawal of treatment will lead to side effects such as headaches, muscle pain, extreme anxiety, tension, restlessness, confusion, irritability. In severe cases other effects may appear, such as hypersensitivity to light, noise and physical contact, abnormally acute hearing and painful sensitivity to sound, hallucinations, numbness and tingling of the extremities, derealisation (feeling the world around you is not real), depersonalisation (feeling your mind is becoming separated from your body) or epileptic seizures (violent fitting or shaking).

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/18157

I wonder if her telling her mother that she didnt recognise her own hand in front of her was a side effect of sudden withdrawal, depersonalisation maybe?

 

[mrazda71]

I don't think he did realise as he tried to invoke it.

The side effects of Zopliclone could certainly be mistaken for mental illness if nobody (including the person themselves) was aware that the person was taking it..."aggressiveness, confusion, depression, amnesia, hallucinations"are a few that are listed.

Its also possible that she'd been unwittingly taking them with alcohol. Her sister mentioned she liked a pre lunch tipple (sherry was it?)

then there's the possible side effects of a sudden withdrawal if she'd become dependent ( no idea if this was the case)

sudden withdrawal of treatment will lead to side effects such as headaches, muscle pain, extreme anxiety, tension, restlessness, confusion, irritability. In severe cases other effects may appear, such as hypersensitivity to light, noise and physical contact, abnormally acute hearing and painful sensitivity to sound, hallucinations, numbness and tingling of the extremities, derealisation (feeling the world around you is not real), depersonalisation (feeling your mind is becoming separated from your body) or epileptic seizures (violent fitting or shaking).

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/18157

I wonder if her telling her mother that she didnt recognise her own hand in front of her was a side effect of sudden withdrawal, depersonalisation maybe?

Yes! And even if the death of Helen WAS accidental, I imagine after one dead partner, he'd definitely panic knowing that he'd been plying her with his sleeping tablets!

 

[hunkerdown]

If it was an accident why would he go to all the bother of hiding Helen and Boris and creating a whole back story for months when he could have simply reported her death and explained away the zopiclone by saying she had been taking them herself?


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[mrazda71]

If it was an accident why would he go to all the bother of hiding Helen and Boris and creating a whole back story for months when he could have simply reported her death and explained away the zopiclone by saying she had been taking them herself?


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Because, if you've been doing something you KNOW is wrong and you'd be in the poop for it and something even worse happens, your panic is above and beyond what would be normal in an accidental situation ... and so the twisted tale becomes even more twisted. Once you've told one lie or covered up one untruth, you have to keep up the pretence ...

 

[ZaZara]

If it was an accident why would he go to all the bother of hiding Helen and Boris and creating a whole back story for months when he could have simply reported her death and explained away the zopiclone by saying she had been taking them herself?


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Agree!

IMHO this was all planned and prepared. IS would have been waiting for an opportunity to execute his plan.
He could not really plan that moment, because someone might come along, or HB would trot off to a meeting, but he'd know in advance how much time he would need and he was waiting for a window of opportunity.

Outside that window, the day would have to proceed according to schedule (medical visit, chinese takeaway) to make everything look as normal as possible.

 

[Cherwell]

If it was an accident why would he go to all the bother of hiding Helen and Boris and creating a whole back story for months when he could have simply reported her death and explained away the zopiclone by saying she had been taking them herself?

It would still likely have aroused some suspicion, because none were prescribed for her. If she had had trouble sleeping, wouldn't she have gone to her GP? Do you know if she'd had similar medication in the aftermath of her husband's death?

 

[Florrie]

It would still likely have aroused some suspicion, because none were prescribed for her. If she had had trouble sleeping, wouldn't she have gone to her GP? Do you know if she'd had similar medication in the aftermath of her husband's death?

She didn't like take medication, IS has shot himself in the foot already by saying that.

His best defence in that situation would have been a "found her suddenly dead" scenario where he could say "she occasionally takes my sleeping tablets if she can't sleep".

The fact he didn't do that speaks volumes.


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[Duchy]

ZopicloneOverdose

When taken alone, it usually is not fatal, but when mixed with alcohol or other drugs such as opioids, or in patients with respiratory, or hepatic disorders, the risk of a serious and fatal overdose increases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zopiclone

I think it unlikely she died as a result of Zopiclone alone.

 

[ColourPurple]

If it was an accident why would he go to all the bother of hiding Helen and Boris and creating a whole back story for months when he could have simply reported her death and explained away the zopiclone by saying she had been taking them herself?


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If his call to the police is to be believed then Helen didn't like to take medication and would treat herself instead with herbal remedies or vitamins. So maybe he knew that those who knew Helen would know that she wouldn't have taken them herself?

I've not read Helen's book or blog... was her aversion to medication anything that she wrote about?

 

[Duchy]

If it was an accident why would he go to all the bother of hiding Helen and Boris and creating a whole back story for months when he could have simply reported her death and explained away the zopiclone by saying she had been taking them herself?


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He wouldn't even have to explain it away. Just feign ignorance. However, we don't know yet if there was a trail of him buying Zopiclone online. If there was he would need to have it in his system too so he could say he bought them for himself and she must have used some of his. If he did buy them online and not in his system it would look suspicious.

 

[Cherwell]

I don't think he did realise as he tried to invoke it.

The side effects of Zopliclone could certainly be mistaken for mental illness if nobody (including the person themselves) was aware that the person was taking it..."aggressiveness, confusion, depression, amnesia, hallucinations"are a few that are listed.

Its also possible that she'd been unwittingly taking them with alcohol. Her sister mentioned she liked a pre lunch tipple (sherry was it?)

then there's the possible side effects of a sudden withdrawal if she'd become dependent ( no idea if this was the case)

sudden withdrawal of treatment will lead to side effects such as headaches, muscle pain, extreme anxiety, tension, restlessness, confusion, irritability. In severe cases other effects may appear, such as hypersensitivity to light, noise and physical contact, abnormally acute hearing and painful sensitivity to sound, hallucinations, numbness and tingling of the extremities, derealisation (feeling the world around you is not real), depersonalisation (feeling your mind is becoming separated from your body) or epileptic seizures (violent fitting or shaking).

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/18157

I wonder if her telling her mother that she didnt recognise her own hand in front of her was a side effect of sudden withdrawal, depersonalisation maybe?

I would think there's quite a gulf between experiencing some of the symptoms described, and actually being deemed legally incapable of managing one's own finances though.

 

[mbmc]

I would think there's quite a gulf between experiencing some of the symptoms described, and actually being deemed legally incapable of managing one's own finances though.

I agree although given that the POA had already been put in place I assume for if and when needed, Helen could have given consent for it to be activated if she felt her health was compromised.

My father gave POA to my brother and I when he knew his health was getting worse. If it is left until mentally incapable it has to go through courts to decide, so that is why many people put it in place when they are of sound mind.

Eta, this is why I think it was ISs aim to have POA activated by Helen, believing it was necessary.

 

[Interested Bystander]

He wouldn't even have to explain it away. Just feign ignorance. However, we don't know yet if there was a trail of him buying Zopiclone online. If there was he would need to have it in his system too so he could say he bought them for himself and she must have used some of his. If he did buy them online and not in his system it would look suspicious.

That might be very difficult as he has already stated that Helen would not take medication of any sort other than those she sourced in health food shops and that fact that it is known he has had it on prescription. Did he replace some of her "health shop" pills with Zopiclone - I wonder.