UK UK - Jill Dando, 37, Fulham, London, 26 Apr 1999

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Who did kill Jill Dando? Documentary will see family relive ...

Irish Examiner
https://www.irishexaminer.com › news › Spotlight
Sep 26, 2023 — ... left side of Jill's head especially since he is right handed. And then to calmly walk away. “He (Barry) has so many disabilities.''

ETA, noting watch on right wrist, often associated with left-handedness, imo, speculation, fwiw

View attachment 451543
Thanks. I actually think the perp was more likely right handed as the most important action is to get her head down quickly and forcefully and that would be the leading hand. The firing of the gun could be easily discharged by the left hand of a right handed person as it merely takes getting the end of the gun against the ear and firing through the head. A single shot assassination by a professional using a single modified bullet. If this was a professional hit, as I suspect, then it may simply remain unsolved in perpetuity.
 
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It might be worth noting that in the Netflix documentary, when BG is re-enacting the attack on Jill with a female interviewer, he says it was alleged (presumably by the investigators and prosecutors?) he had used his *left* hand to push Jill down. That's how he re-enacts it.

And interestingly, as BG grabs the interviewer with his left hand, her body and head begin to twist to the left as he pushes on her left shoulder. If he had continued pushing the interviewer right down to the ground, it appears it would have resulted in her facing the same direction Jill was facing when she was shot.
 
Theory Only

Nobody really knows. We can only theorise. Therefore, I’ll throw another theory into the mix. A revenge killing. Revenge against AF. Someone who blamed AF for the death of his female partner. AF was a specialist in gynaecological cancer. AF was due to marry JD. Maybe someone thought “You killed my woman, I’ll kill yours”. Would they have looked into AF’s past patients and relatives? I doubt it, IMO
I think you'd be more likely to just kill AF, than his fiancee/the most loved TV presenter.
 
I watched the Netflix documentary.
The biggest thing that bothered me was the forensic exam of the long coat LE took from BG’s apartment. if the killer was wearing a long coat, shooting someone in the head at close quarters, that coat should have been covered in blood etc. LE stated that they checked it for blood etc but were not surprised they found nothing on it because of the long amount of time since the murder. This to me is laughable. They examined the coat like, what, a year and a half to two years after the murders. BG didn’t appear to be a guy who did laundry very often. Even in 2000/2001 something should have been found on that coat if there was anything there.
The other thing that bothers me is after BG was found not guilty
in his second trial LE apparently skulked away and has spent all the years since then pouting about it instead of continuing to look into it. I get it, LE thinks they got the right guy. So prove it. You sure didn’t prove it to the jury. So what if you can’t retry him; prove to everyone you got it right. Or maybe you find another lead to follow.
 
The second was that the assailant did not end up covered in flesh and blood.
Maybe an assumption too far. The bottom foot or so of JD's front door was stained with blood. If the killer shot her with the gun in his left hand while holding her around the neck, shoulders etc with his right, then there would likely be blood over his right sleeve, as well as over the door. If it were BG, he'd had 18 months to get the coat dry cleaned a few times, so I'd be surprised if there was anything still to be found.

Apart from that invisible speck of explosives residue found on his coat, the police found no evidence that he had possessed guns or ammunition in the past 15 years.
Well, apart from the photograph of him posing with a gun, that is. He denied it was him in the photograph, but his distinctive eyebrows can be seen, the gun disappeared, and he did not IIRC have any explanation for how photos of someone else posing in his flat with a gun came to be on his own camera.
He had neither expertise in weapons, nor the resources to modify them.
Again, the source makes what I'd suggest is an over-confident assertion, or perhaps assumes its own conclusion. It's not clear he needed to have modified any gun, is it? He had clearly obtained a gun from somewhere because he was photographed with one. That one would have done. At most he may have modified a bullet by opening it, reducing the explosive inside, then crimping it shut with pliers.

He had done 18 months in prison for attempted rape; prisons can be universities of crime, so it's conceivable he learnt how to do this in prison. Or indeed, just from reading around. He seemed to fancy himself as a bit of a macho man - karate, the SAS, etc. - and there are magazines (Soldier of Fortune) and writers (e.g The Poor Man's James Bond) who cater for this readership.

It is not exactly the same, but if he had read e.g. The Day of the Jackal, he would have found in it a complete description of how to make explosive bullets that don't use any explosive. The Jackal needed only a hacksaw, fisherman's lead weights, a couple of thermometers, a soldering iron and a model-maker's pin vise and metal files. In another book, the same author describes how to shoot quietly by reducing the powder in a bullet and making a silencer out of a 2-litre plastic Coke bottle. This is just stuff I recall coming across without even having looked for it. It is all out there for those who do.
"The conviction hangs on that speck of explosives residue that might, as Mansfield argued in court, have come from almost anywhere. It might have been fireworks, or the coat could have become contaminated while in police custody (it was photographed before forensic analysis, so the possibilities for contamination were considerable)"
The conviction didn't hang on that - there was much else that pointed to BG. The appeal hung on it, but Nick Ross' blog article explains why the speck should not have been discounted - essentially, contamination requires a source and the possibilities were not in fact remote if properly considered.

The Serb thing is an interesting theory, but for me it stumbles on two things. One that if a rogue country's intelligence service had ordered a hit using a specially-adapted weapon, it would surely have leaked by now from somewhere at that end: the shooter, the getaway driver, the document forger, the armourer, the controller.

The other is that rogue states usually want everyone to know who did it. The idea is, you know what exactly happens to you if you are the next to cross them. We have multiple live examples, e.g. Litvinenko and Skripal, of Putin murdering his critics abroad as a deterrent. In each case the murderers took care to use a weapon that only a country could obtain - polonium, Novichok - to make it clear who did it. Inside Russia, those murdered always "fall" from high windows - it's the signature.
 
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The more I learn about this case, the more I am coming to accept that this was not the work of a trained or highly skilled assassin. It was probably the work of an ordinary man without any particular skill set or access to specialized equipment.

The shell casing was found on the ground near Jill’s body. That would suggest a functional semi-automatic weapon was used. Not a modified starter gun or anything else that was improvised.

The bullet passed through Jill’s skull. It was not modified so that it would disintegrate on impact (and be more likely to result in immediate death).it was probably standard ammunition suitable for target practice.

The marks on the shell casing could have come from crimping it after removing some of the accelerant I order to make it less loud but that would be expected to reduce the power of the bullet but it still had enough power to go through Jill’s skull and go into the door. Modifying bullets in that manner requires skill that I really doubt most street criminals in the UK would possess. A silencer would be extremely rare in the hands of a street criminal in the UK and very expensive. Homemade “silencers” can be set up but they add considerably to the length of the gun and make it hard to conceal and cumbersome to use. Fibers are usually discharged along with the bullet and turn up in the wound on autopsy but none were found. A gun fired point blank into a human will tend to make less sound than it would make anywhere without obstruction. That may explain why no one reported hearing a gun shot.

Jill appears to have been on the ground when she was shot. Apparently the assailant was struggling with her, forced her to the ground, and then shot her. This appears to have been a very clumsy way to kill someone. The logical way would be to get within a meter or so from the victim and then fire several shots to the torso. He may have tried to get close enough to get a clean head shot and was able to resist and he had to overpower her. I am wondering if he only had one bullet.

I have no idea how easy it would be to obtain a hand gun in the UK. Certainly they are available in some circles but how likely would it be for a low level street criminal to have the right connections to obtain such a gun.

Barry George had some convictions for assaulting or harassing women but I am not aware that he had any drug or property crime arrests. Did he associate with the type who could get him a gun?
 
Maybe an assumption too far. The bottom foot or so of JD's front door was stained with blood. If the killer shot her with the gun in his left hand while holding her around the neck, shoulders etc with his right, then there would likely be blood over his right sleeve, as well as over the door. If it were BG, he'd had 18 months to get the coat dry cleaned a few times, so I'd be surprised if there was anything still to be found.


Well, apart from the photograph of him posing with a gun, that is. He denied it was him in the photograph, but his distinctive eyebrows can be seen, the gun disappeared, and he did not IIRC have any explanation for how photos of someone else posing in his flat with a gun came to be on his own camera.

Again, the source makes what I'd suggest is an over-confident assertion, or perhaps assumes its own conclusion. It's not clear he needed to have modified any gun, is it? He had clearly obtained a gun from somewhere because he was photographed with one. That one would have done. At most he may have modified a bullet by opening it, reducing the explosive inside, then crimping it shut with pliers.

He had done 18 months in prison for attempted rape; prisons can be universities of crime, so it's conceivable he learnt how to do this in prison. Or indeed, just from reading around. He seemed to fancy himself as a bit of a macho man - karate, the SAS, etc. - and there are magazines (Soldier of Fortune) and writers (e.g The Poor Man's James Bond) who cater for this readership.

It is not exactly the same, but if he had read e.g. The Day of the Jackal, he would have found in it a complete description of how to make explosive bullets that don't use any explosive. The Jackal needed only a hacksaw, fisherman's lead weights, a couple of thermometers, a soldering iron and a model-maker's pin vise and metal files. In another book, the same author describes how to shoot quietly by reducing the powder in a bullet and making a silencer out of a 2-litre plastic Coke bottle. This is just stuff I recall coming across without even having looked for it. It is all out there for those who do.

The conviction didn't hang on that - there was much else that pointed to BG. The appeal hung on it, but Nick Ross' blog article explains why the speck should not have been discounted - essentially, contamination requires a source and the possibilities were not in fact remote if properly considered.

The Serb thing is an interesting theory, but for me it stumbles on two things. One that if a rogue country's intelligence service had ordered a hit using a specially-adapted weapon, it would surely have leaked by now from somewhere at that end: the shooter, the getaway driver, the document forger, the armourer, the controller.

The other is that rogue states usually want everyone to know who did it. The idea is, you know what exactly happens to you if you are the next to cross them. We have multiple live examples, e.g. Litvinenko and Skripal, of Putin murdering his critics abroad as a deterrent. In each case the murderers took care to use a weapon that only a country could obtain - polonium, Novichok - to make it clear who did it. Inside Russia, those murdered always "fall" from high windows - it's the signature.
IMO if we give credit to BG to be able to plan and carefully dispose of the gun, clean his coat and his messy apartment from all the proofs that may convict him, then we would need to consider him at least to some extent an organized offender, which is actually quite in contrast with the information we have about him. And expanding this further, we need to consider why, if he is capable of planning and disposing of proofs, he did not completely destroyed the coat and also dispose of all the other stalker photos that the police found in his apartment , which he should have realized could also provide a bad position for him. All this does not quite add up and match with the character IMO.

Also he seems to have an alibi which I am not sure it has been verified, but this is what was reported in The Guardian article I previously shared:

"Elaine Hutton and Susan Bicknell at Hammersmith & Fulham Action for Disability alerted police to George because of his strange demeanour and mental health problems when he arrived at the centre soon after the murder. Yet, unbeknown to them, the timing they gave for his arrival (around 11.50am, 20 minutes after the shooting) gave him an alibi. George would have needed at least 30 minutes to go home, change clothes and then walk to the centre."
 
I was never convinced of BG's guilt... until I watched the new Netflix documentary and saw what a lying creep he is.

My friends and family tell me I'm a good judge of a person's character, and BG sets off all my alarms. I don't like him at all, and I think he's lying through his teeth. Does that make him guilty? No, not with any certainty. But I find it much easier to believe he got away with murder.

Your follow-up post also ties into a thought I've had for a while: what if the killer didn't originally intend to kill?

Obviously the man was carrying a gun, but for some people that's just a habit and doesn't guarantee they plan to use it. BG had a track record of following women right up to their front door. If he did that to Jill Dando, it's possible a short scuffle ensued and the end result was that she was shot to make her stop fighting. I believe the autopsy showed some injuries to Jill's arms which might support the idea of her briefly trying to fight back.

I think most people, myself included, have assumed Jill's death was always the intention, and that it happened very quickly without a struggle. But now I wonder if that was necessarily the case.
I get your point, but the only people in the UK who 'casually' carry a gun are criminals or nutters. Also she drove to her home at an unexpected time and did not live there. Her attendance on that day and at that time was random. Not much chance for being followed, given the witness testimony that the perpetrator ran away. If they had followed her stalker style then they would have to have been following her car in their own car to keep up. So rather than walking away down the road, as multiple witnesses have testified, he would simply have driven off? Whatever, judging by the police response to the various documentaries, they seem to consider they already caught the person responsible. If that's the case I agree. Shame the evidence wasn't water right.
 
I get your point, but the only people in the UK who 'casually' carry a gun are criminals or nutters. Also she drove to her home at an unexpected time and did not live there. Her attendance on that day and at that time was random. Not much chance for being followed, given the witness testimony that the perpetrator ran away. If they had followed her stalker style then they would have to have been following her car in their own car to keep up. So rather than walking away down the road, as multiple witnesses have testified, he would simply have driven off? Whatever, judging by the police response to the various documentaries, they seem to consider they already caught the person responsible. If that's the case I agree. Shame the evidence wasn't water right.
If JD's phone had been hacked (there was a lot of that going on at that time as we know from Leveson) then her intentions to visit her old home that day, as well as the approximate time, may have been know in advance, and the killer waiting. There is no evidence that she was followed.

I get what commentators say on this thread about BG being an obvious fit as the neighbourhood nutter (although not on the radar until a year later), which became the focus of the investigation and why he ended up with court and conviction mainly on quite tenuous circumstantial evidence, but then ultimately released and the conviction quashed. He's widely reported to be fantasist and who cannot be believed, IMO, on any level, whether he looks like he incriminates himself or is just on balance down right weird enough by his former and subsequent behaviour to have done it. I don't believe he did. It looks too professional to me for it to have been him. If it had been him he'd have been collared very quickly IMO.

It may be that the person who pulled the trigger may never be identified and the motive never known. A professional hit, professionally executed. MOO.
 
I get your point, but the only people in the UK who 'casually' carry a gun are criminals or nutters.
BG *is* a convicted criminal, even if you take Jill out of the equation. And by most accounts he is a "nutter." By your own criteria he's precisely the kind of person who might have casually carried a gun around.

Also she drove to her home at an unexpected time and did not live there. Her attendance on that day and at that time was random. Not much chance for being followed, given the witness testimony that the perpetrator ran away. If they had followed her stalker style then they would have to have been following her car in their own car to keep up.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting BG followed Jill for any distance. BG lived quite close by and was reportedly seen in Gowan Avenue earlier that morning. My thinking is that he just happened to see Jill when she arrived home (or perhaps had been periodically hanging around her house to see if she had come back) and when she started to walk down her path, he took the opportunity and followed her to the front door. Perhaps with the intention of killing her; perhaps with the intention of talking to her and it all went horribly wrong.
 
BG *is* a convicted criminal, even if you take Jill out of the equation. And by most accounts he is a "nutter." By your own criteria he's precisely the kind of person who might have casually carried a gun around.


To be clear, I'm not suggesting BG followed Jill for any distance. BG lived quite close by and was reportedly seen in Gowan Avenue earlier that morning. My thinking is that he just happened to see Jill when she arrived home (or perhaps had been periodically hanging around her house to see if she had come back) and when she started to walk down her path, he took the opportunity and followed her to the front door. Perhaps with the intention of killing her; perhaps with the intention of talking to her and it all went horribly wrong.
So you reckon BG was just wandering about without any purpose carrying a concealed firearm with a modified bullet and just happened to randomly coincide with JD and in a split second decided to murder her as opposed to murdering anyone else he randomly encountered. Then escape without being noticed only to become a suspect a year later. I get where the BG perp advocates on here are coming from but I just don't buy it. Doesn't add up for me. Too convenient to blame the local freak.
 
So you reckon BG was just wandering about without any purpose carrying a concealed firearm with a modified bullet and just happened to randomly coincide with JD and in a split second decided to murder her as opposed to murdering anyone else he randomly encountered. Then escape without being noticed only to become a suspect a year later. I get where the BG perp advocates on here are coming from but I just don't buy it. Doesn't add up for me. Too convenient to blame the local freak.
Stranger things have happened. BG has a proven track record of stalking random women for no particular reason. And he also tried to stalk Princess Diana who bore a striking resemblance to Jill Dando: he was found in the grounds of Kensington Palace with a rope and a knife wearing a balaclava!

It's also worth noting that although the police didn't take BG seriously as a suspect until a year later, quite a few people who knew him had suspicions almost immediately. They reported him to the police within days because he was acting suspiciously and trying to coerce them into giving him an alibi. One of the reasons the investigators have cited for not investigating him sooner was the fact that he used multiple identities: the police didn't know all the different reports about BG were talking about the same man!

I don't have any fixed theory on what did or didn't happen, I'm just throwing out different possibilities. I favour BG being guilty but fully accept he might not be. I just don't think it can be discounted that a random local weirdo randomly ran into Jill on a random day, randomly killed her, and that luck rather than planning allowed him to get away with it.
 
One only needs to look at the story surrounding Holly Willoughby to see what kind of dangerous individuals that are out there, imo a similar answer( dangerous individual) lies in the JD case.
Totally missed this one!
 
So you reckon BG was just wandering about without any purpose carrying a concealed firearm with a modified bullet and just happened to randomly coincide with JD and in a split second decided to murder her as opposed to murdering anyone else he randomly encountered. Then escape without being noticed only to become a suspect a year later. I get where the BG perp advocates on here are coming from but I just don't buy it. Doesn't add up for me. Too convenient to blame the local freak.
Potentially BG was frequently or always wandering around with a gun, stalking away, and one of his stalking targets was JD. I don’t think the intention was to kill someone he would randomly encounter. BG’s assaults were sexual. If he was carrying a gun, it would likely be to intimidate and coerce, not to kill. If he was the man at JD’s doorstep that day, maybe he didn’t intend to kill her, it just went horribly wrong.
 
Stranger things have happened. BG has a proven track record of stalking random women for no particular reason. And he also tried to stalk Princess Diana who bore a striking resemblance to Jill Dando: he was found in the grounds of Kensington Palace with a rope and a knife wearing a balaclava!

It's also worth noting that although the police didn't take BG seriously as a suspect until a year later, quite a few people who knew him had suspicions almost immediately. They reported him to the police within days because he was acting suspiciously and trying to coerce them into giving him an alibi. One of the reasons the investigators have cited for not investigating him sooner was the fact that he used multiple identities: the police didn't know all the different reports about BG were talking about the same man!

I don't have any fixed theory on what did or didn't happen, I'm just throwing out different possibilities. I favour BG being guilty but fully accept he might not be. I just don't think it can be discounted that a random local weirdo randomly ran into Jill on a random day, randomly killed her, and that luck rather than planning allowed him to get away with it.
Neither of the two witnesses the appeal judges accepted definitely saw the killer ID'd BG. It wasn't him.
 
Neither of the two witnesses the appeal judges accepted definitely saw the killer ID'd BG. It wasn't him.
They couldn't identify BG in a police line-up, but that isn't definitive proof it wasn't him.

If I had been on the jury and seen this evidence I'm not sure I could have convicted BG. The bar that has to be reached for conviction is a high one, and rightly so. But the totality of the evidence is compelling, as Jill's colleague Nick Ross lays out in the long and very thorough article he wrote about the case.

Sometimes the police *know* they have the right person, but simply can't get enough evidence to prove it in a court of law. That doesn't mean they're wrong. The fact that the scene was so damaged by the paramedics' efforts to save Jill, and the fact that more than a year had passed by the time investigators had access to BG's belongings, made the task of finding evidence so much more difficult than it might otherwise have been.

What might have been found at the scene if paramedics hadn't trampled all over it and smeared blood all over it? What might have been found on BG's clothing if it had been examined a few days after the shooting, rather than 13 months later? We'll never know.
 
One only needs to look at the story surrounding Holly Willoughby to see what kind of dangerous individuals that are out there, imo a similar answer( dangerous individual) lies in the JD case.
Gavin Plumb wasn't acting alone though; he had hired a hitman from the USA to fly over next week to assist him in the kidnap/killing plot.

 
They couldn't identify BG in a police line-up, but that isn't definitive proof it wasn't him.

If I had been on the jury and seen this evidence I'm not sure I could have convicted BG. The bar that has to be reached for conviction is a high one, and rightly so. But the totality of the evidence is compelling, as Jill's colleague Nick Ross lays out in the long and very thorough article he wrote about the case.

Sometimes the police *know* they have the right person, but simply can't get enough evidence to prove it in a court of law. That doesn't mean they're wrong. The fact that the scene was so damaged by the paramedics' efforts to save Jill, and the fact that more than a year had passed by the time investigators had access to BG's belongings, made the task of finding evidence so much more difficult than it might otherwise have been.

What might have been found at the scene if paramedics hadn't trampled all over it and smeared blood all over it? What might have been found on BG's clothing if it had been examined a few days after the shooting, rather than 13 months later? We'll never know.
So what happened to Jill's coat then? Even if the paramedics had took it off her and threw it onto the garden or pavement, why couldn't the police have still picked it up and at least attempted to see if there was any possible evidence on it.

What happened to her clothing, who removed it from the scene?
 
So what happened to Jill's coat then? Even if the paramedics had took it off her and threw it onto the garden or pavement, why couldn't the police have still picked it up and at least attempted to see if there was any possible evidence on it.

What happened to her clothing, who removed it from the scene?
Her clothes appear to be visible in some of the crime scene photos, seemingly cut off by the paramedics. I assume the police removed Jill's clothes from the scene, and that they *did* examine them. Why would they not.

But bear in mind this was almost 25 years ago; DNA and other such evidence was much more difficult to extract. A trace of the killer's DNA would be difficult to find *today* when overwhelmed by so much of Jill's blood and other remnants of the attempts to save her life. In 1999 much larger samples were needed than today, and the samples had to be largely uncontaminated--which the items from the scene sadly were not.

Incidentally, a fibre consistent with a pair of trousers owned by BG *was* found on Jill's raincoat (Link). It's far from conclusive proof of his guilt, but it is another piece of circumstantial evidence.
 
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