GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #10

[Nausicaa]

What I want to know is how come this couple didnt know each other.

Of course they knew each other. They lived next door. But Joanna's father has the impression that they didn't know each well, weren't on socialising terms. No credible source is pretending that they were complete strangers to one another.

 

[Chester]

Thats great observation. He was tall like Greg.

What I want to know is how come this couple didnt know each other.

Strange coincidence for me is that Joanna belonged to a rowing club, and now recently Tanja Tabaks girlfriend has just taken up this sport......

Coincidence its an odd sport for a coincidence............

Sorry how tall is Greg, don't think I have seen that reported ?

Rowing is very popular in that area so not such an odd sport, hard to believe they didn't know each other though.

 

[SilkySifaka]

It does make you wonder what sort of evidence they do have. I was convinced they had at least something other than a gut feeling, lack of an alibi and a funny haircut to have arrested CJ and get 2 extensions from court to hold him further. It seemed not.

I also read that the DNA on JY's body was not of good enough quality to confirm a suspect - only to rule them out. Do we know if this is true? If so then the police must surely have something else fairly substantial?

I think this case will get weirder still - truth is stranger than fiction.

However there was a big difference between the two. One was charged, one was not.

I feel comfortable that LE would not have charged him so quickly unless they had some concrete evidence. It would have been easy to charge the landlord if all they went by was gut feeling.

DNA doesn't take that long anymore, 24 hours or so and I suspect they have some.

Don't forget that all we hear in the news is far less than we hear in the states or even Canada about evidence. The penalties for the press to report on things even if leaked are hefty and rarely do they want to take the chance. I find it easy to forget at times and assume that what we hear is what they have but its just the tip of the iceberg.

imo

 

[Chester]

However there was a big difference between the two. One was charged, one was not.

I feel comfortable that LE would not have charged him so quickly unless they had some concrete evidence. It would have been easy to charge the landlord if all they went by was gut feeling.

DNA doesn't take that long anymore, 24 hours or so and I suspect they have some.

Don't forget that all we hear in the news is far less than we hear in the states or even Canada about evidence. The penalties for the press to report on things even if leaked are hefty and rarely do they want to take the chance. I find it easy to forget at times and assume that what we hear is what they have but its just the tip of the iceberg.

imo

Yes and thank god for that. In some of the cases I have followed in the states the media have virtually obliterated any chance of a fair trial by the time the case is heard.

 

[Praxis]

Catching up on some earlier posts from over night re: trip over bridge/airport scenarios etc If it was the suspect killer caught on CCTV, crossing the bridge and reason given to police when questioned was a trip to airport, whether he went to airport or not, his phone location should show close enough to where he went. If a person is travelling abroad, making travel arrangements etc they would definitely take a mobile phone. If the signal is traced taking a detour to Longwood Lane, that's a tricky one to explain. Assuming killer left the phone behind, it would still be very odd not to take a phone.(also: airport would have CCTV)

Find it hard to believe the CCTV bridge sighting story (with or without mobile phone). Either way, I wonder what his phone movements show or... don't show.

 

[Chester]

Catching up on some earlier posts from over night re: trip over bridge/airport scenarios etc If it was the suspect killer caught on CCTV, crossing the bridge and reason given to police when questioned was a trip to airport, whether he went to airport or not, his phone location should show close enough to where he went. If a person is travelling abroad, making travel arrangements etc they would definitely take a mobile phone. If the signal is traced taking a detour to Longwood Lane, that's a tricky one to explain. Assuming killer left the phone behind, it would still be very odd not to take a phone.(also: airport would have CCTV)

Find it hard to believe the CCTV bridge sighting story (with or without mobile phone). Either way, I wonder what his phone movements show or... don't show.

I think there is a common misconception about how mobile companies record information. The only permanent record they will keep will relate to a billing event. A billing event would be a call or text made/received. The phone would also have to be switched on. Otherwise the location information is ephemeral, mobile companies do not keep vast databases of customers movements.

 

[Lynn R]

Not sure there are many parallels with the Perugia case tbh.

No true, apart from being high profile and DNA evidence. Just using it as an example of a possible miscarriage of justice.

 

[Chester]

No true, apart from being high profile and DNA evidence. Just using it as an example of a possible miscarriage of justice.

I understand, it was certainly a complicated case and very high profile.

 

[Praxis]

I think there is a common misconception about how mobile companies record information. The only permanent record they will keep will relate to a billing event. A billing event would be a call or text made/received. The phone would also have to be switched on. Otherwise the location information is ephemeral, mobile companies do not keep vast databases of customers movements.

Really? I always though police had access to sophisticated complex technology that could trace a phone even if the battery was removed - obviously a myth then! Cheers for info.

 

[Chester]

Really? I always though police had access to sophisticated complex technology that could trace a phone even if the battery was removed - obviously a myth then! Cheers for info.

Yup they are not magical devices, they need power. Some phones are never really off so that's where that idea comes from.

If the Police put an active trace request into the network then the information can be captured and saved but in normal circumstances it doesn't happen.

 

[Dr Talent]

I think there is a common misconception about how mobile companies record information. The only permanent record they will keep will relate to a billing event. A billing event would be a call or text made/received. The phone would also have to be switched on. Otherwise the location information is ephemeral, mobile companies do not keep vast databases of customers movements.

Here is what Wikipedia say about retention of phone records:

Telephony Data - retention period 12 months All numbers (or other identifiers e.g. name@bt) associated with call (e.g. physical/presentational/network Assigned CLI, DNI, IMSI, IMEI, exchange/divert numbers)

Date and time of start of call Duration of call/date and time of end of call Type of call (if available) Location data at start and/or end of call, in form of lat/long reference. Cell site data from time cell ceases to be used.

IMSI/MSISDN/IMEI mappings. For GPRS & 3G, date and time of connection, IMSI, IP address assigned. Mobile data exchanged with foreign operators; IMSI & MSISDN, sets of GSM triples, sets of 3G quintuples, global titles of equipment communicating with or about the subscriber.

In addition it has been reported that the UK police and security services have the following additional capabilities on mobile telephones, provided by telephone operators, but not covered by the voluntary code.

• The capability to record to the content of selected conversations.
• The capability to determine the location[6] of a mobile telephone to within a few yards by using triangulation and multiple base stations.
• The capability to remotely activate the microphones of some mobile

telephones.

The UK Financial Times of the 2nd August 2005 [page 4 of the UK edition] reported that the UK police can ask mobile phone operators to download special spying software to a mobile telephone without the user’s knowledge or permission.

When this has been done the authorities can turn on the microphone of a mobile telephone and listen to any conversations in its vicinity. This capability only exists for mobile telephones which can accept downloaded software. The telephone must be turned on for the microphone to be activated, but the user does not have to be making a call.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention

 

[Lynn R]

However there was a big difference between the two. One was charged, one was not.

I feel comfortable that LE would not have charged him so quickly unless they had some concrete evidence. It would have been easy to charge the landlord if all they went by was gut feeling.

DNA doesn't take that long anymore, 24 hours or so and I suspect they have some.

Don't forget that all we hear in the news is far less than we hear in the states or even Canada about evidence. The penalties for the press to report on things even if leaked are hefty and rarely do they want to take the chance. I find it easy to forget at times and assume that what we hear is what they have but its just the tip of the iceberg.

imo

I like someone else said earlier dont think this is the right guy which I suppose what is leading me to question or at least wonder what evidence they have. But of course part of me believes there is no way they would charge someone in a case like this with insufficient evidence. They really do not want to mess this one up.

But this is not always the case and convictions can be made as we all know on very shaky evidence. I am not sure if this is still the case but in the US you can get convicted on witness identification testimony alone which is notoriously unreliable.

Yea the Americans dont hold back - look at Jared Lee Loughner. Not that there is much doubt of his guilt. But as an example. They were even able to reveal how many run-ins he had with the police etc on a prime time news show (Fox). That just wouldn't happen here in the UK. I could go to a website right now and find out if any US citizen had a criminal record.

The times are changing and censoring the internet is a whole different ball game.

 

[Chester]

Here is what Wikipedia say about retention of phone records:

Telephony Data - retention period 12 months All numbers (or other identifiers e.g. name@bt) associated with call (e.g. physical/presentational/network Assigned CLI, DNI, IMSI, IMEI, exchange/divert numbers)

Date and time of start of call Duration of call/date and time of end of call Type of call (if available) Location data at start and/or end of call, in form of lat/long reference. Cell site data from time cell ceases to be used.

IMSI/MSISDN/IMEI mappings. For GPRS & 3G, date and time of connection, IMSI, IP address assigned. Mobile data exchanged with foreign operators; IMSI & MSISDN, sets of GSM triples, sets of 3G quintuples, global titles of equipment communicating with or about the subscriber.

In addition it has been reported that the UK police and security services have the following additional capabilities on mobile telephones, provided by telephone operators, but not covered by the voluntary code.

• The capability to record to the content of selected conversations.
• The capability to determine the location[6] of a mobile telephone to within a few yards by using triangulation and multiple base stations.
• The capability to remotely activate the microphones of some mobile

telephones.

The UK Financial Times of the 2nd August 2005 [page 4 of the UK edition] reported that the UK police can ask mobile phone operators to download special spying software to a mobile telephone without the user’s knowledge or permission.

When this has been done the authorities can turn on the microphone of a mobile telephone and listen to any conversations in its vicinity. This capability only exists for mobile telephones which can accept downloaded software. The telephone must be turned on for the microphone to be activated, but the user does not have to be making a call.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention

Exactly so we are talking about records relating to billing events (i.e. calls , texts, mms, gprs etc.)

Or we are talking about the Police actively tracking a phone via network or spy software.

We are not talking about a mobile operator keeping detailed records of your every movement outside of those scenarios.

A mobile network does exchange location data with a phone on a regular basis but this is purely to enable calls to be directed to the correct cellsite. The information is ephemeral unless it is captured on a billing record.

 

[columbosstogey]

Sorry how tall is Greg, don't think I have seen that reported ?

Rowing is very popular in that area so not such an odd sport, hard to believe they didn't know each other though.

Oh I read greg was about 6ft and this guy is about 6ft 4in.

There is only one real rowing club in Bristol. They row on the Harbourside, Joanna was a member there, so I would assume was Tanja. It just seems a bit odd....still everything about this is odd.

I have found lots of statements about the couples and not one says they knew each other.......

Most odd especially as they are a young couple with lots of things of interest the same.

 

[Destroyer]

Do you think Phillb or Otto might be able to do a 3D plan of VT's prison cell ??

 

[Chester]

Oh I read greg was about 6ft and this guy is about 6ft 4in.

There is only one real rowing club in Bristol. They row on the Harbourside, Joanna was a member there, so I would assume was Tanja. It just seems a bit odd....still everything about this is odd.

I have found lots of statements about the couples and not one says they knew each other.......

Most odd especially as they are a young couple with lots of things of interest the same.

None from them though. Mainly seems to be the father speculating based on the fact that he could not recall them being mentioned.

They had only been in the flat for a couple of months.

Whilst it may not have been a BFF thing I am sure they must have known each other.

 

[aneurin]

He could have an 'electronic footprint' for the time he was alone in the flat i.e computer (emails), mobile (texts, calls etc) < surely triangulation would show where he was on Friday eve/night.

A number of newspapers have reported that VT was interviewed by a journalist from the Express Group in the week before his arrest and stated that "I wasn't here on the night she went missing. I was away and I don't know anyone who saw or heard anything".

 

[Chester]

Do you think Phillb or Otto might be able to do a 3D plan of VT's prison cell ??

You win a prize for the funniest comment of the day.:floorlaugh:

 

[Chester]

A number of newspapers have reported that VT was interviewed by a journalist from the Express Group in the week before his arrest and stated that "I wasn't here on the night she went missing. I was away and I don't know anyone who saw or heard anything".

The view on this quote really depends on one key thing.

Did he assume that she went missing on the Sunday, which was when it was reported ?

 

[SilkySifaka]

I like someone else said earlier dont think this is the right guy which I suppose what is leading me to question or at least wonder what evidence they have. But of course part of me believes there is no way they would charge someone in a case like this with insufficient evidence. They really do not want to mess this one up.

But this is not always the case and convictions can be made as we all know on very shaky evidence. I am not sure if this is still the case but in the US you can get convicted on witness identification testimony alone which is notoriously unreliable.

ETA
I also think the police were going to be doubly sure with another arrest let alone charging. One thing to help with enquiries, another to have a 2nd innocent person arrested. I just don't see them rushing on the second.
Yea the Americans dont hold back - look at Jared Lee Loughner. Not that there is much doubt of his guilt. But as an example. They were even able to reveal how many run-ins he had with the police etc on a prime time news show (Fox). That just wouldn't happen here in the UK. I could go to a website right now and find out if any US citizen had a criminal record.

The times are changing and censoring the internet is a whole different ball game.

I see no reason to imagine they don't have the right guy except he looks like a nice upstanding young man. However most murderers are nice guys to someone and few look like killers.

guess i really dont understand why people think they have the wrong person, except that they did not charge the landlord and he was arrested. To me that speaks rather highly of LE in this case, they released him when they realized he was the wrong person (and imo they were pretty sure he was the wrong person because of the way they went publicly immediately after that asking for more people and how they said they were still looking for a killer..it just sounded like they no longer looked at him except in a "just in case" sort of way).

That they arrested and then charged him so quickly tells me this is night and day to the landlord. They have something solid.

One thing I want to mention, I have always believed it was a person in that building as the most likely. Either that or someone she knew as a friend whom she let in. None of us would think twice about letting a neighbor we see all the time in, or if we were in the hall together suggesting sharing a pizza. The missing pizza also points to someone in the building. I doubt a stranger is going to steal the pizza and carry it out but what would be more "normal" than to take it from the counter next door with you where there is almost no chance of being seen?