GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #15

[Robin Hood]

I am a non believer so don't understand how it all works but IIWM I would only assume it was a Catholic priest who can't repeat the confessional. I would, with my limited knowledge assume anything I say to any other clergy is fair game.

 

[kINGFISHER]

Peter Brotherton has been visiting inmates at Long Lartin prison in Worcestershire since 1975.

He had assumed the role of a volunteer chaplain in January this year, just a month prior to his first meeting with Vincent Tabak.

Is there a differenc here.

What date did he start his role. Just as a visitor he would have had little sway, but as a chaplain would his testomony be more relivant. So could he have been put in place for that purpose to help the defence, but that does not really seem to be the case.?

 

[veggiefan]

Why would he expect the chaplain to keep a confidence?

Because "Mr Brotherton accepted he had told Tabak the conversation would be in confidence".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...n-emotional-meeting-with-prison-chaplain.html

Describing this two-faced pastor as a snitch is a kindness. If a man of God deliberately lies and tricks those whose needs he is there to serve, he has let down his God, himself and his religion, and should resign. He won't, of course.

 

[aneurin]

....

All I want to know is this:

How did the chaplain's testimony aid the prosecution?

Having been presented in evidence, the prosecution may now question VT regarding it.

 

[bees]

This is how I see it:

VT’s self-incriminating words to the lay chaplain , that he gave in what he was told was the strictest of confidence, only show his acceptance of blame and contriteness for the crime he committed.
One for the defense.

The lay chaplain, a religious bigot, who works under the auspices of the prison (albeit in a loose way), betrayed the trust of an accused person (who some of us seem to be forgetting is innocent until proven guilty) for an inexcusable personal reason.
One subtle one for the defense.

To me, all it confirms is that VT told the Chaplain he was going to plead guilty.

What it also confirms to me is that prison Chaplains shouldn't be permitted to have "confidential" discussions with prisoners to the extent that they are able to withhold vital evidence from the police. If a prisoner tells ANYONE that they committed a crime then that person should be obliged by law to pass that on.

For example, teachers have confidential conversations with parents / students but if they are told about a crime, they HAVE to disclose that. I think the same applies to doctors and nurses so it should apply to prison chaplains, although clearly it doesn't if the prisoner is religious.

Apologies for going off topic but I feel very strongly that justice for the victims of crime should take precedence over a criminal's religious views.

 

[aneurin]

Because "Mr Brotherton accepted he had told Tabak the conversation would be in confidence".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...n-emotional-meeting-with-prison-chaplain.html

Describing this two-faced pastor as a snitch is a kindness. If a man of God deliberately lies and tricks those whose needs he is there to serve, he has let down his God, himself and his religion, and should resign. He won't, of course.

I must admit I have no idea as to what religious denomination Mr Brotherton represents and therefore have no idea as to what rules that denomination has regarding the seal of the confessional, but this is the first time I've heard the argument that it only selectively applies to those individuals that the priest regards as sufficiently religious to qualify. It's a very morally dubious position to take if you ask me.

 

[Clio]

Well I find this whole business with the chaplain a bit off to say the least

The chaplain tells him that the coversation will be in confidence and then decides VT is not religious so breaks his word

FWIW VT went to a Catholic school

Born in the small town of Veghel in the Netherlands, the youngest of five children, Tabak grew up in nearby Uden where he was a popular and bright student at the local Roman Catholic High School.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...incent-Tabak-admits-I-did-kill-Jo-Yeates.html

 

[bees]

I must admit I have no idea as to what religious denomination Mr Brotherton represents...

I read it was The Salvation Army.

 

[bees]

Well I find this whole business with the chaplain a bit off to say the least

The chaplain tells him that the coversation will be in confidence and then decides VT is not religious so breaks his word

VT told the chaplain himself that he wasn't religious.

 

[Clio]

Last night BBC Points West News said that VT is expected to enter the witness box on Thursday

Rupert Evelyn has just tweeted

When it comes to Vincent Tabak's defence Bill Clegg QC will explain his case to the jury

So maybe he isn't going to take the stand

 

[kINGFISHER]

Mr Brotherton of his intention to plead guilty on 8 February, three weeks after his arrest.

Why was LL held until March.

 

[whiterum]

To call the chaplain a snitch and informer is ludicrous.

A non religious person shouldn't/wouldn't expect the same treatment by the clergy. They're non-believers, why would they respect a chaplain? Why would he expect the chaplain to keep a confidence?

Exactly- I am sure the Chaplain was upset on hearing this too, being a religious man it was probably weighing heavily on his mind. This situation would be unusual for him, since he is not a catholic priest and VT is not religious, so he went to his superiors for advice.

Anyway who cares, VT is the confessed killer and the one on trial for murder not the Chaplain.

 

[FiestyFairy]

Last night BBC Points West News said that VT is expected to enter the witness box on Thursday

Rupert Evelyn has just tweeted

When it comes to Vincent Tabak's defence Bill Clegg QC will explain his case to the jury

So maybe he isn't going to take the stand

I heard on the radio this morning that VT would take the stand on Thursday and I must say I was surprised. If he takes the stand then the prosecution can ask him all the questions he has refused to answer previously and he is bound answer or face contempt charges
I don't think he will testify but I would love to be wrong

 

[Redgoblin]

I heard on the radio this morning that VT would take the stand on Thursday and I must say I was surprised. If he takes the stand then the prosecution can ask him all the questions he has refused to answer previously and he is bound answer or face contempt charges
I don't think he will testify but I would love to be wrong

My guess is that we're not going to hear an explanation as to why even if he does take the stand.

 

[Paulette]

Because "Mr Brotherton accepted he had told Tabak the conversation would be in confidence".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...n-emotional-meeting-with-prison-chaplain.html

Describing this two-faced pastor as a snitch is a kindness. If a man of God deliberately lies and tricks those whose needs he is there to serve, he has let down his God, himself and his religion, and should resign. He won't, of course.

"When Tabak told him he had something to tell him that was going to "shock you", Mr Brotherton was said to have replied: "You tell me and we will see." "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/joanna-yeates-killer-confessed-to-chaplain-2372235.html

Furthermore, if anyone told me they had murdered someone, I would be on the phone to the police in a second. I would be impervious to any taunts of "snitch".

Where is one's duty? To a murderer or the murdered? Best put duty before hypocrisy. Mr. Brotherton has to live with his conscience, he knew his duty was to tell and be dam*ed the fallout.

 

[notsure]

This is how I see it:

VT’s self-incriminating words to the lay chaplain , that he gave in what he was told was the strictest of confidence, only show his acceptance of blame and contriteness for the crime he committed.
One for the defense.

The lay chaplain, a religious bigot, who works under the auspices of the prison (albeit in a loose way), betrayed the trust of an accused person (who some of us seem to be forgetting is innocent until proven guilty) for an inexcusable personal reason.
One subtle one for the defense.

Yes, I think it does help the defence. Even though VT has committed an unforgivable and shocking crime, I did feel a pang of annoyance on his behalf yesterday on hearing the testimony of the chaplain. Okay, some say the chaplain did not have a duty of confidentiality towards a non-religious person, but if that's the case, why is he even bothering to talk to non-religious people in the first place?

It should be made clear to prisoners that a chaplain may tell you that what you say will be confidential, but he may well be lying and actually just be more or less an undercover cop.

 

[Luna15]

The intention of my post was to question the sagacity of the prosecution in putting the lay chaplain on the stand, not to get into a religious debate or anything else.

All I want to know is this:

How did the chaplain's testimony aid the prosecution?

http://www.itn.co.uk/home/31645/Chaplain+describes+Tabaks+confession

When the barrister suggested some of his evidence was wrong, Mr Brotherton replied: "If that's what you say, I would agree with you."

hardly a 'reliable witness' then...

 

[veggiefan]

For example, teachers have confidential conversations with parents / students but if they are told about a crime, they HAVE to disclose that. I think the same applies to doctors and nurses so it should apply to prison chaplains, although clearly it doesn't if the prisoner is religious.

There is no such requirement in England. It would place professionals in an impossible position. For instance, the Hippocratic Oath requires doctors to respect the privacy of their patients, and this is also required of doctors in the GMC guidelines.

Similarly, Roman Catholic priests who break the confidentiality of the confessional are breaking canon law, and would face the prospect of ex-communication from their church if they did so.

 

[Redgoblin]

There is no such requirement in England. It would place professionals in an impossible position. For instance, the Hippocratic Oath requires doctors to respect the privacy of their patients, and this is also required of doctors in the GMC guidelines.

Similarly, Roman Catholic priests who break the confidentiality of the confessional are breaking canon law, and would face the prospect of ex-communication from their church if they did so.

Do they have Catholic priests in prison? - It would probably be a bad idea?

 

[notsure]

My guess is that we're not going to hear an explanation as to why even if he does take the stand.

I doubt that he even knows exactly why. As you suggested previously, I think he has had underlying issues for a long time, and that underneath the successful, affable chap, there was a great deal of negativity and a building anger. If he had managed to repress it for all those years, the chances are he had found some psychological way of denying it rather than dealing with it. By this stage he will have lost track of what is really going on in his mind. That's why he'll only be able to give the sketchiest of accounts of what happened.