GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #15

[SynthSparkles]

@jonkay01
Vincent Tabak has spent the entirety of this evidence with his hands behind his neck, head bowed, looking down at the floor.

 

[Nausicaa]

So allowing for the most generous interpretations the defence pathologist can think of we already have several distinct ante-mortem injuries, including fractured laryngeal cartilage, an injury to the jaw or collar-bone, trunk injuries and wrist marks. Unless Greg is going to testify that she already had these before meeting Tabak I think the "no struggle" lie has already been refuted.

But a serious omission on the prosecution's part not to have got Greg to confirm that she had none of these injuries when he left her.

 

[Clio]

He said they were in the kitchen and he added, no other room.

It isn't a kitchen with seating, as far as I can see.

No there's no seating in the kitchen. I didn't get the impression they had gone and sat on the couch and was responding to someone who suggested they had.

On the whole, I find the tweets very useful but that one was a bit ambiguous. I first read it as "In the kitchen" "No, we were in the other room"

I then re-read it and decided it meant "In the kitchen, not in any other room"

 

[bos]

So allowing for the most generous interpretations the defence pathologist can think of we already have several distinct ante-mortem injuries, including fractured laryngeal cartilage, an injury to the jaw or collar-bone, trunk injuries and wrist marks. Unless Greg is going to testify that she already had these before meeting Tabak I think the "no struggle" lie has already been refuted.

But a serious omission on the prosecution's part not to have got Greg to confirm that she had none of these injuries when he left her.

Agree!

I know Dr Carey has more experience than me, but I wouldn't have called a broken, bloodied nose virtually uninjured!

 

[Luna15]

READ FROM THE BOTTOM UP.... more to come

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injury to the nose could be caused by falling or hand over the mouth.

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Court being shown photo of Jo before post mortem. Carey says it looks 'virtually uninjured'

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these are not the large bruises that might be associated with two handed compression says carey, agrees it looks like one hand used

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compression of the neck can kill you quicker than it can take you to run out of air (hold your breath) says carey

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Carey says it is surprising how quickly people can go unconscious or die from compression of the neck

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Carey thinks death could be related to a 'sudden stoppage of the heart'

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Carey says based on evidence here he would opt for a strangulation time of '20 seconds' but he accepts it an inexact science

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you have known non-fatal cases where neck compression has gone on for considerably longer than in this case? 'yes' says carey

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length of time of assault? 'overall injuries would be consistent with a fairly short period of neck compression'

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Carey says clothing is almost bound to be pushed up in the dumping of the body

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suggesting that this is a sexual attack is largely speculative says Carey

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do you have experience of such asphyxia cases? Carey 'yes i do'

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Can asphyxia form part of a sexually motivated event? 'yes'

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were you aware that the upper clothing may have been disturbed? Carey 'i was able to see that in extensive photos' taken of the body

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Vincent Tabak is back in the dock having given his evidence. #yeates

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court debating a point of law

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Carey also has experience of sexually motivated homocide

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Carey says he as extensive experience of neck compression cases

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Carey says he is giving expert evidence

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Dr Carey is a forensic pathologist. He is being questioned by Bill Clegg QC

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Court resumes. Dr Nat Carey is about to go into the witness box.

 

[Luna15]

READ FROM THE BOTTOM UP

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Lunch break. Back at 1400

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'they are all minor injuries' says Dr Carey. #yeates #Tabak

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some injuries not possible to tell whether they are anti-mortem or post-mortem or peri-mortem (around the time of death)

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very light post mortem damage when the body comes into contact with a rough surface referring to a small injury on Jo

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Clegg is asking questions about the injuries found on Jo's body. working through them trying to establish what may have caused them

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carey says marks on the neck are typical of firm pressure from fingernails

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Carey says it is quite common to see injuries on the jaw in neck compression

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talking now about an injury to the chin. Clegg says cause? 'consistent with the application of pressure to the neck'

 

[FiestyFairy]

His own pathology expert hasn't really supported the no struggle argument. In addition he seemed to be supporting the sexual asphyxiation possibility

He said her torso injuries were consistent with grappling injuries!

 

[Clio]

His own pathology expert hasn't really supported the no struggle argument. In addition he seemed to be supporting the sexual asphyxiation possibility

He said her torso injuries were consistent with grappling injuries!

He also said

Pathologist Carey says no evidence of interference to Joanna Yeates' genital area. Can't exclude possibility breasts were interfered with

I would have expected to hear that last bit under cross examination but it seems he just volunteered it

 

[Sammyme]

No there's no seating in the kitchen. I didn't get the impression they had gone and sat on the couch and was responding to someone who suggested they had.

On the whole, I find the tweets very useful but that one was a bit ambiguous. I first read it as "In the kitchen" "No, we were in the other room"

I then re-read it and decided it meant "In the kitchen, not in any other room"

Clio, I was agreeing with you, not the poster you were responding to.
Can you post the tweet which you say was ambiguous on this point? It's not one I recall seeing.

 

[Neurotripsy]

skynewsgatherer

Trial of Vincent Tabak resumes and focuses on injuries on Joanna Yeates' left arm.

 

[Sammyme]

His own pathology expert hasn't really supported the no struggle argument. In addition he seemed to be supporting the sexual asphyxiation possibility

He said her torso injuries were consistent with grappling injuries!

Yes, and he has confirmed gripping of arm and / or wrist.

That means he was gripping her beforehand because, according to his own account, while strangling her his hands were on her mouth and neck so it couldn't have been then. Which in turn means that there was more than a simple pass of just going for a kiss that he says he thought she wanted. It's no wonder Joanna screamed. She was being gripped, so indicating, in my opinion, that she was being forced, overpowered, trapped.

 

[bijoux]

His own pathology expert hasn't really supported the no struggle argument.

That will come up in cross examination I should think.

In addition he seemed to be supporting the sexual asphyxiation possibility.

I understood him to say asphyxia can form part of a sexually motivated event, but that sexual attack in this case is largely speculative.

I think it's all very interesting how the defense introduce a misunderstood signal from JY which lead VT to doing what he did, the prosecution pick up on the sexual motivation and aggressively attempt to get VT to admit to it which he doesn't, then an expert witness for the defense testifies that asphyxia can be sexual, yet VT did not sexually assault JY which in my mind shows there is no evidence whatsoever of sexual assault, and that rather leaves the prosecution empty handed on their theory.

That I believe the sexual motivation on the part of the accused means nothing because there is no proof.

 

[Neurotripsy]

skynewsgatherer

Jury seeing bruises on Joanna's hand. Dr Carey says they could have occurred during the "incident" or when her body was moved.


rupertevelyn

looking at bruise on front of shin. That would be possible to be a bruise before death? 'you couldn't say it was related to the incident"

Carey describes overall injuires to the legs as 'minor injuries'.


skynewsgatherer

Dr Carey says some of the marks on Joanna's ankle could have come from when her body froze and then thawed.


rupertevelyn

do you find injuries that are self-inflicted in manual strangulation? 'yes you do... the victim in desperation may scrape their own neck'

Carey didn't find any examples of such finger nail damage. Victim may get their own skin under nails.

in manual strangulation do you see injuries to the attacker? 'yes some part of their body maybe scratched by the victim'

Carey looking at forearm photo of Tabak taken after arrest. Left mid forearm.

Carey says what looks like a spot on Tabak's arm is a healing breakage of the skin of a fairly minor nature.

It could have occurred before the incident, substantially after or during the incident

Now looking at a picture of Tabak's 'stubbed toe' Dr Carey can't tell when it could have happened

 

[Nausicaa]

I think it's all very interesting how the defense introduce a misunderstood signal from JY which lead VT to doing what he did, the prosecution pick up on the sexual motivation and aggressively attempt to get VT to admit to it which he doesn't, then an expert witness for the defense testifies that asphyxia can be sexual, yet VT did not sexually assault JY which in my mind shows there is no evidence whatsoever of sexual assault, and that rather leaves the prosecution empty handed on their theory.

That I believe the sexual motivation on the part of the accused means nothing because there is no proof.

Three points :

1. I think the reference to sexual asphyxia refers to the deliberate attempt to heighten sexual pleasure by deprivation of oxygen. The person being throttled is the one whose pleasure is (allegedly) increased. No one is claiming or suggesting that that happened here, but it is noted in passing that it is one cause of (accidental) death by strangulation.

2. VT must have had a motive for assaulting JY. The need to silence her cries is not a credible motive because obviously she was screaming as a result of being assaulted. We cannot prove the motive and the prosecution doesn't have to, but it is reasonable to suggest what is by far the most likely motive - sex.

3. VT denies sexual motivation but admits that he wanted and tried to kiss her on the mouth after ten minutes of conversation which he took to be flirtatious. This is completely ridiculous. A girl was flirting with me, I felt the desire to kiss her on the mouth, I did so, but of course I didn't feel the slightest stirring of the old flitch and never had the slightest intention of going beyond the snogging stage. NO ! VT's admission of the kiss motive is tantamount to admitting a sexual motive: the denial is self-contradictory and obviously unworthy of credence.

 

[Neurotripsy]

skynewsgatherer

Dr Carey now under cross examination by Nigel Lickley, QC.


rupertevelyn

Dr Carey says there's not much disagreement between his evidence and that of Dr Delaney

Carey says a 'violent struggle could also cause abrasions' on Joanna's body


skynewsgatherer

Dr Carey says he largely agrees with the evidence of the prosecution pathologist.

 

[bos]

Three points :

1. I think the reference to sexual asphyxia refers to the deliberate attempt to heighten sexual pleasure by deprivation of oxygen. The person being the throttled is the one whose pleasure is (allegedly) increased. No one is claiming or suggesting that that happened here, but it is noted in passing that it is one cause of (accidental) death by strangulation.

2. VT must have had a motive for assaulting JY. The need to silence her cries is not a credible motive because obviously she was screaming as a result of being assaulted. We cannot prove the motive and the prosecution doesn't have to, but it is reasonable to suggest what is by far the most likely motive - sex.

3. VT denies sexual motivation but admits that he wanted and tried to kiss her on the mouth after ten minutes of conversation which he took to be flirtatious. This is completely ridiculous. A girl was flirting with me, I felt the desire to kiss her on the mouth, I did so, but of course I didn't feel the slightest stirring of the old flitch and never had the slightest intention of going beyond the snogging stage. NO ! VT's admission of the kiss motive is tantamount to admitting a sexual motive the denial is self-contradictory and obviously unworthy of credence.

:floorlaugh: - not heard that expression before

 

[Neurotripsy]

skynewsgatherer

Dr Carey says it's a mistake to say how many injuries someone has suffered as it is not known how many "injury mechanisms" caused them.


rupertevelyn

Carey says he'd never say there were 'x' number of injuries. To say 'this woman suffered 43 injuries' could give a false impression

Carey says 'it's a very difficult case'.

abrasion on rt side of the face could have occurred when attempts were made to put her over the wall says Dr Carey


skynewsgatherer

Dr Carey says that he can't say whether an abrasion on Joanna's cheek was caused when she was alive.

Dr Carey agrees that marks on Joanna's wrists were caused by them being gripped.


rupertevelyn

Carey holding up his hand showing how Tabak may have strangled Joanna Yeates. perhaps causing an abrasion on her chin with his thumb.

Carey doesn't dispute this is a case of compression of the neck it's 'just home much further one can go'

you'd expect the victim to react, struggle? 'yes' says Carey 'having your airway interfered with causes panic'


skynewsgatherer

"It's unlikely that this sort if thing happens with two people bolt upright with them not moving." says Dr Carey.

Dr Carey says that he would expect anyone with their airways restricted to struggle.


rupertevelyn

the force applied was clearly not trivial says Dr Carey.

this case clearly falls short of that severe compression says Dr Carey.

Carey says he spent hours looking at the post mortem photos. some of the photos he says are 'potentially misleading'

 

[Neurotripsy]

skynewsgatherer

In an initial report by Dr Carey he thought that Joanna may have had her nose damaged by being "forced into a soft furnishing" like a sofa.

He now thinks it could have been caused by a hand over her mouth - or a fall to the ground.


rupertevelyn

Carey says he spent hours looking at the post mortem photos. some of the photos he says are 'potentially misleading'

the error range in this case, when determining duration of strangulation, would have to be quite large says Carey

Carey says forensic text books often quote 15-30 seconds for strangulation. lickley asks 'or 15-45'. Yes says Carey 'depending on textbook'


skynewsgatherer

"Death was clearly not instantaneous," said Dr Carey.

Dr Carey says that he can't rule out that Joanna's clothing was "rucked up" when she was still alive.

Dr Carey says it is very difficult to redress a dead body.


rupertevelyn

Dr Carey has finished answering questions from Lickley.

Dr Carey leaves the witness box. Clegg saying 'that's as far as we can go this afternoon'

Vincent Tabak in the dock, head in his hands staring at the floor.

 

[ArtistAtLarge]

Hello everyone,

I've been following this case since the start when JY disappeared and am now following the trial with the rest of you. I tried to join last week as I had a few theories to expand upon, but I have been stranded in limbo while waiting for my application so it's been a bit frustrating!. Anyway I'm in now so I'll just post what I have been thinking....

When I saw the plans of the flat's layouts, the first thing that drew my attention was that the two bedrooms were adjoined and had a blocked up doorway....I wondered whether this allowed sound to transfer between the two rooms easily....?

I wondered if there had been any issue with to noise problems, because coming from someone who has suffered from neighbour noise in the past, I know how the slightest thing can induce rage, as a neighbour of mine once physically attacked the neighbour between us due to the constant loud music they played....He just flipped and swore he could have killed the guy if he hadn't been pulled away.

But as this hasn't seemed to be the case, I then wondered whether VT had been privy to the (trying to be discreet here)...'nocturnal activity' of JY and GR and from this, had developed some kind of sexual fantasy / obsession about her....?

Be interested to hear anyone's thoughts.

 

[badhorsie]

:welcome: ArtistAtLarge