GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #16

[Cherwell]

Yes but your going by VT's and TM version of events? how do you know that it is true, many people have quoted stuff some of it have not been that reliable?

I believe it was mentioned in a statement from one of the witnesses who attended a dinner party with them after the event. Can't remember if the witness testified in court in person, or whether it was a written statement, but either way it would be under oath.

 

[weeeva]

I don't think it has been mentioned here, but earlier this month CJ gave what I think is his only interview to the press (for the Financial Times Magazine). It may make interesting reading while we wait for the verdict:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/22eac290-eee2-11e0-959a-00144feab49a.html

Thanks for that veggiefan. I had been trying to find this article, but could not get onto the site.
After reading this I feel even more sure that if CJ had any useful evidence to give he would have done so.
Goodness he doesn't even have a telly, and seldom buys a paper.

 

[KMP09]

I believe it was mentioned in a statement from one of the witnesses who attended a dinner party with them after the event. Can't remember if the witness testified in court in person, or whether it was a written statement, but either way it would be under oath.

And who was the witness/friend that testified?, maybe the person who had went to live in VT's flat when he had gone to the states.

 

[Sammyme]

does it really matter?

Apparently. Not sure why, though.

 

[weeeva]

Landlord ? This alleged exchange was in the public domain even prior to any arrest.

Yes it has been in the public domain, but only as supposed chit chat from neighbours reported by a press that has been sued by the landlord, and won by the landlord.
As normal the judge has directed the jury that they must NOT take into account anything they have heard or read from the media, and to use only evidence heard at the trial while deliberating.
God forbid that any of the jury would be thinking "well I read it in the Daily Mail, Sun, or Star that CJ told VT this or that, so it must be true".

 

[Firefly75]

In Russia, Slovenia, Serbia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Macedonia, Montenegro the Netherlands and Egypt it is customary to “kiss three times, on alternate cheeks.
[/I]

Disclaimer: I can only speak for the part of the world I know, but -

upon meeting, yes, but not after ten minutes of chit-chat. Greeting with a kiss, or a triple kiss, is also a no-no with people one doesn't know, or has just met for the first time. And it's a really big no-no when it comes to the members of the opposite sex, especially for men to initiate it - because most women would object strongly and pull away, plus it's easily misunderstood.

And on top of this, younger generations aren't all that keen on it, to be honest. It's sort of reserved for extended family because you don't see them all the time, or sometimes for good friends you haven't seen in a while.

In my experience, the further down south you go, the more likely they would be to greet-kiss, but it's by no means the standard thing to do.

 

[veggiefan]

re: "bolded" v. "emboldened"

does it really matter?

Only in that it seems odd to base part of an abbreviation (bbm) on non-standard English (the use of bold as a verb). A double level of obscurity, if you see what I mean.

To give it potential relevance to this case, does Shakespeare's ...

"Nothing emboldens sin so much as mercy" sound better as ...

"Nothing bolds sin so much as mercy" ?

 

[otto]

I mentioned a couple of days ago that there was something about VT's testimony that bothered me and didn't quite add up. He seems to be a man that has a well thought out answer for everything. During his testimony, he provided information that was in addition to his defence statement. That was irregular and can be viewed as suspicious. He did in fact provide answers for evidence including the two screams (which his lawyer was not expecting) and that he dropped Joanna on the ground while he allegedly carried her from her apartment to his. He stated that he carefully carried her with one arm under her knees and another one under her back. It sounded like he was very gentle with her. However, he said that as he was walkin on the back path, he dropped her. He said that she was heavy and the path was slippery. There was something wrong about that remark - almost as though he was attempting to explain something on the path.

I was emailing with a friend this evening and, although I hadn't mentioned this curiosity, he said that he believed VT got Joanna out of her flat, ensuring that no one saw him carrying a limp woman out the door on the side of the building, by dumping her out the bedroom window. I had not considered this possibility, but that makes sense. He dumped her out the window and there was blood on the ground - perhaps that's when her nose was broken. That also ensured that he was not seen at the side of the building carrying her out the entrance. After loading her into his vehicle, which was probably after the text to Tanya at 9:25, he immediately bought rocksalt to absorb the blood. He then returned to the flat, most likely to put down some rocksalt. With the snow over the next couple of days and lots of rocksalt application, the evidence may have disappeared into the ground.

I can't properly credit the person that originally uploaded the site map, but here it is again, with the floorplan overlay ... pathway, parking, Joanna's window, VT's entrance. We can see how removing Joanna through the front door would leave him visible to the street. Moving her to the back of the building by pushing her out the window would explain how he removed her without being seen and why part of his testimony focused on explaining that he dropped her onto the path in the back of the building.

 

[veggiefan]

Apart from all that, I think it's a sweeping generalisation to say that your generation make better neighbours!

Well, that wasn't my intention, but I see that I'm also being told that I have "some highly personal view" about how neighbours might actually bother to get to know each other rather than kill each other.

Probably my age - but I have a pretty strong feeling that I am far more likely to be helped out than strangled by my own next-door neighbours, whom I know well (even the couple who moved in only recently).

 

[otto]

On another point, it has been generally accepted that VT would pass by Joanna's kitchen window when leaving his flat. Looking at the image above, that doesn't exactly make sense to me. The entrance to the main floor, where everyone collected their mail, is just around the corner from VT's flat ... leaving the flat he would turn left, left and enter through the curved stairs along the side wall. I would expect that this would be his normal way for arriving and leaving, not along the back path and passing Joanna's window - although it could depend on where he parked his car.

 

[otto]

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure that this is what VT did when he was moving Joanna to his car. That's why he said that he moved her onto the bed ... he did ... onto the bed and out the window. That's why he said that he dropped her on the path ... because there was evidence of her being dropped at that location - directly outside her window on the back path, halfway between rounding the corner and his entrance. From there, I don't believe he took her into his flat, but claimed he did in case there was any evidence of her in his flat. I think he left her there, got his bicycle cover, wrapped her up and put her in his car. I'm sure that he went back to the path to see if there was evidence and then decided he needed the rocksalt. I suspect he bought the crisps (love the Freudian slip of crisis) and beer to cover the rocksalt purchase. He then returnd to the flat, put down a layer of rocksalt and then drove around thinking about where to put her - in a place that no one would think of. He came up with the quarry across the street from a bike path - something he would have been familiar with.

I think that when the prosecution brought up his calculated manipulativeness, they were referring to the fact that he was manipulating the evidence with plausible interpretations.

 

[FiestyFairy]

When VT first came home from work he spent some time reading TMs work email, which at the time I found odd. Could he have had concerns that she had developed relationship with a colleague while he was away in LA.
That night he checked her email and found it to be true then he embarked on a tit for tat retribution with JY without thinking through the consequences?

 

[otto]

When VT first came home from work he spent some time reading TMs work email, which at the time I found odd. Could he have had concerns that she had developed relationship with a colleague while he was away in LA.
That night he checked her email and found it to be true then he embarked on a tit for tat retribution with JY without thinking through the consequences?

I didn't know that he read her email. Where or how was that information made public? Is there a link?

Reading her work email would suggest that he was peeking into her life in a way that was unhealthy, although it is not unusual for married couples to have each other's passwords. Are you suggesting that he was insecure in his relationship with the woman he met on the internet? Was he possessive and demanding? The prosecutor suggested that he manipulated her after the murder, with VT at one point insisting that she return from something early because he was distressed about the murder.

Comments from the girlfriend's father, early on, suggest that VT's relationship with his girlfriend was intact.

 

[FiestyFairy]

I didn't know that he read her email. Where or how was that information made public? Is there a link?

Reading her work email would suggest that he was peeking into her life in a way that was unhealthy, although it is not unusual for married couples to have each other's passwords. Are you suggesting that he was insecure in his relationship with the woman he met on the internet? Was he possessive and demanding? The prosecutor suggested that he manipulated her after the murder, with VT at one point insisting that she return from something early because he was distressed about the murder.

Comments from the girlfriend's father, early on, suggest that VT's relationship with his girlfriend was intact.

Unfortunately I don't have a link to the detils of him checking her emails but it was part of the prosecutions opening statement. His constant texting, emails and calls to TM definitely suggest he was needy and insecure to me

 

[otto]

I'm beginning to think that this was an extremely violent, brutal attack where he was on her the minute she opened the door. I was thinking that she retreated to the bedroom and he followed, but that would mean that he left the front door wide open, and that doesn't make sense. Did he grab her around the neck with his arm, turn around and close the door, then take her to the bedroom? Did she scream loud the with the first swing of his arm, wiggle loose, scream again only to be overcome? For some reason he wants us to believe that after accidentally making her go limp while trying to kiss her in the kitchen, he allegedly took her to the bedroom and laid her on the bed, left the flat, . Then he watched TV and drank beer, even though according to his story he had to drive later that evening and wasn't interested in drinking cider with Joanna. After doing that for about 30 minutes, he texted his girlfriend that he was bored and decided to go out for crisps, beer and rocksalt, but in the mean time he was panicking about the body ... so he packed Joanna up in his car and was on his way for rocksalt at 10:15. He texted his girlfriend again from the store at 10:28 about what he was buying ... "crisis" and beer.returned later, around 9:30 (after his first girlfriend text), he carried her gently, one arm under her knees and the other under her back, out the entrance

If that happened, that he turned around and locked the door, what happened between 8:40 and 9:25 or 8:50 and 9:20? Is that when her nose was broken, her wrists were bruised, she got blood under her watch strap, in her hair and on her blouse, her torso was bruised, one sock was removed? How did the blood get onto the sole of her sock? After the attack, did he latch the door, return home, text his girlfriend, have a beer and then think he had to clean up the evidence ... so he moved his car, put Joanna out the window, got his bike bag, put her in the car and then messed with his girlfriend's head for a few weeks?

 

[otto]

Unfortunately I don't have a link to the detils of him checking her emails but it was part of the prosecutions opening statement. His constant texting, emails and calls to TM definitely suggest he was needy and insecure to me

Thanks ... insecure and domineering is probably a good description for VT. If the girlfriend was cutting things short to accommodate his neediness, he was probably domineering ... compensating for his insecurities.

 

[Robin Hood]

Could somebody direct me to the post where a member (can't remember the name) posted how they think Jo was held and strangled by VT explaining that she couldn't move whilst it was happening.
I would like to read it again please.

 

[otto]

Could somebody direct me to the post where a member (can't remember the name) posted how they think Jo was held and strangled by VT explaining that she couldn't move whilst it was happening.
I would like to read it again please.

If you find this, please post it ... as I'd like to get a better understanding about how that would fit into the possibility that he grabbed her with his arm around her neck while he turned to lock the door.

 

[Robin Hood]

If you find this, please post it ... as I'd like to get a better understanding about how that would fit into the possibility that he grabbed her with his arm around her neck while he turned to lock the door.

Will do Otto.
Do you think the dull thud that was heard could have been VT's heel pushing the door closed while he held Jo ?

Edited to add- the sound would be dulled (if that's a word) if he fell back against it.

 

[veggiefan]

Could somebody direct me to the post where a member (can't remember the name) posted how they think Jo was held and strangled by VT explaining that she couldn't move whilst it was happening.
I would like to read it again please.

This one?

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased UK Joanna Yeates Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #15