GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #5

[Nausicaa]

'Constriction of the neck' is not the same as 'strangling' as I interpret it in this instance. 'Strangling' denotes intentional murder, whereas 'constriction of the neck' could occur if someone leaned a forearm across someone's throat while they were, for example, pressed against a wall or floor. [...] 'Constriction' denotes pressure, to my mind, although I could be completely off course. Strange term for the police to release though. Very specific.

I have to question this, Laserdisc. The initial police statement referring to "constriction of the neck" immediately offered the vernacular equivalent "strangled". The technical term was probably a direct quotation from a medical report or post mortem. I think we are supposed to take the two terms as approximately equivalent.

Strangulation or constriction of the neck are expressions which still leave quite a lot of possibilities open, including the possibility that there was no intention to kill. However, if I correctly remember that the police have declined to exclude the possibility (which seems unlikely to me) that the missing sock was used as a ligature, it seems to me likely that the marks on the neck do suggest the use of some sort of ligature rather than the bare hands. This is surely the kind of question that the forensic experts know all about.

 

[liz b.]

I don't think this is the case.

I don't know at all if it's true.But, I have that peculiar kind of memory that retains much of what I read... Something else I read : At the time of CJ's arrest, and I don't know who to actually attribute it to :" People were seen and heard around her (Jo) flat that night.And LE knows who they are ". While this is perhaps *not* a verbatim quote,it is very close,and conveys all of the orginal statement's meaning. IMO... I am looking for the original quote...

All JMO

 

[equationgirl]

Sorry, her name was Julie


Here's the Youtube documentary. In 4 parts. Mind blowing

http://www.youtube.com/user/RealCrimeUK#g/c/785586914D1C7BB7

Her poor mother was the one who found her too - the police completely failed to find the body.

Just shows how cursory searches and investigations can be.

 

[laserdisc10]

I have to question this, Laserdisc. The initial police statement referring to "constriction of the neck" immediately offered the vernacular equivalent "strangled". The technical term was probably a direct quotation from a medical report or post mortem. I think we are supposed to take the two terms as approximately equivalent.

Strangulation or constriction of the neck are expressions which still leave quite a lot of possibilities open, including the possibility that there was no intention to kill. However, if I correctly remember that the police have declined to exclude the possibility (which seems unlikely to me) that the missing sock was used as a ligature, it seems to me likely that the marks on the neck do suggest the use of some sort of ligature rather than the bare hands. This is surely the kind of question that the forensic experts know all about.

We'll all arrive at our own interpretation of the various reports, obviously

What leads me to suspect this was not a standard 'strangling' is the fact it was first reported that investigators were considering that JY may have died from hypothermia

' She looked as if she were asleep' descriptions aside, it seems to me at least, that there were virtually no visible signs of strangulation or any other cause of death, initially. This was followed, from memory, by the release of the 'constriction of the neck' report. Later still came speculation (by the police or by the media ? ) that the 'missing sock' had been used to kill the victim, which again appears to negate fingerprints from a strangling

But as I say, we'll each interpret this differently, no doubt

 

[otto]

Small patio seen here in front of the living room window

See green arrow:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51....1.459892,-2.624088&spn=0.000299,0.000915&z=21

Quite right ... thank you. So that probably is the listing for that particular apartment. I moved the kitchen to the the area where the window is (next to the door), and added a dining room. I think this makes a little more sense, but there are probably still more changes that need to be made

 

[laserdisc10]

Her poor mother was the one who found her too - the police completely failed to find the body.

Just shows how cursory searches and investigations can be.

Yes. It beggers beliefs, doesn't it ? Several members of a forensics team in that small dwelling for five days, yet they failed to even look beneath the bath. If they had, they would have found the body. They failed to search the attic space. If they had, they would have found items such as the victim's clothing etc. tossed there by the killer

And it was the poor mother who found her daughter's badly decomposed body beneath the bath some 80 days later, if memory serves - something she cannot push from her mind. The police gave her ten thousand Pounds as compensation but were never able to explain why a forensics team, in five days, did not locate the body that was right under their noses

The mother is a hero. And overtuned the double jeopardy law in the process

 

[laserdisc10]

@ Otto


Excellent work you've done there

 

[equationgirl]

Her mother is indeed heroic - an award from the Queen hardly covers it. She is an example and an inspiration.

 

[equationgirl]

Would there be more windows? Superb model again, Otto, I for one am extremely impressed by your drawings.

 

[mikeymot]

My thoughts too. I lean towards accidental/unintended killing. 'Constriction of the neck' is not the same as 'strangling' as I interpret it in this instance. 'Strangling' denotes intentional murder, whereas 'constriction of the neck' could occur if someone leaned a forearm across someone's throat while they were, for example, pressed against a wall or floor. It might be an attempt to control, hold in place, threaten, or to momentarily silence the victim in order the other could 'explain'. Too much pressure, inadvertently imposed, has the potential to kill

If, as has been suggested in the media and elsewhere, the missing-sock had been used to 'constrict the neck', I'd expect there to be visible evidence in the form of 'burn' marks or chaffing, possibly with ligature type markings around a substantial area of the neck. I'd also expect the police to state that JY had been strangled or choked to death if this were the case. 'Constriction' denotes pressure, to my mind, although I could be completely off course. Strange term for the police to release though. Very specific

I too go along with this being an 'accidental' death....however....in the case of someone who has stopped breathing, because the airway has been constricted, could the victim have been revived....had an ambulance been called? If so, then, in my book..it is no longer accidental if no effort has been made to try to save her.

 

[Nausicaa]

What leads me to suspect this was not a standard 'strangling' is the fact it was first reported that investigators were considering that JY may have died from hypothermia.

Wasn't that before the body had been thawed and the full post-mortem taken place ?

 

[otto]

@ Otto


Excellent work you've done there

Thanks ... just added another opening between the Dining and Living rooms ... will add more details and continue to refine as we figure out more details. Eventually, we can put a camera in and tour ... once everything is pretty much sorted out.

 

[Firefly75]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-we-shared-are-dashed-but-not-forgotten.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ider-DNA-samples-of-1974-murder-suspects.html

 

[laserdisc10]

I too go along with this being an 'accidental' death....however....in the case of someone who has stopped breathing, because the airway has been constricted, could the victim have been revived....had an ambulance been called? If so, then, in my book..it is no longer accidental if no effort has been made to try to save her.

I didn't explain myself at all well and you're entirely correct, thank you

What I meant was I lean towards accidental killing, or unintentional killing, i.e., not premeditated murder (although that doesn't mean I'm not open to a vast range of other possibilities)

But everything you've written is correct and in no way did I mean to imply any excuse for the killer. They became guilty, in my book, the moment they laid hands on her

 

[otto]

Would there be more windows? Superb model again, Otto, I for one am extremely impressed by your drawings.

The software does most of it ... I'm using Revit software. There are no other windows along the wall where the entrance is (per: http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist/ITN/2010/12/22/T22121033/?v=0&a=1), but I suspect there are windows in the back, particularly if the bedroom is correctly placed. I think that the kitchen and bathroom will be along the same wall ... simply because it simplifies the plumbing lines to keep them close together. I was looking at the general structure some more, and decided there should be a structural wall running between the living and dining rooms, as well as along the centre of the apartment running front to back (excluding the living room) ... so I think we're close with the layout, especially if the kitchen is correctly placed.

 

[otto]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-we-shared-are-dashed-but-not-forgotten.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ider-DNA-samples-of-1974-murder-suspects.html

I wonder if that could have been taken inside the flat ... as the window is right next to the door.

 

[Phillb]

The software does most of it ... I'm using Revit software. There are no other windows along the wall where the entrance is (per: http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist/ITN/2010/12/22/T22121033/?v=0&a=1), but I suspect there are windows in the back, particularly if the bedroom is correctly placed. I think that the kitchen and bathroom will be along the same wall ... simply because it simplifies the plumbing lines to keep them close together. I was looking at the general structure some more, and decided there should be a structural wall running between the living and dining rooms, as well as along the centre of the apartment running front to back (excluding the living room) ... so I think we're close with the layout, especially if the kitchen is correctly placed.

There's two windows in the back Otto (I think)
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #3

All windows seem to be uniform on every floor on the buildings all around.

 

[mikeymot]

Imo, this has been a strangely-orchestrated investigation from the outset

The focus upon the Clifton Bridge, for example, and the massive outlay of resources there, when people such as myself, on the other side of the globe, were able to see there were alternative routes available which could have been used in transportation of the body

Then media reports of retailers/businesses along the route said taken by JY after she left the Ram. Shop owners said police had contacted them to say they should review their CCTV and if anything of note were discovered, this should be referred to LE. At the busiest time of year for retailers

The apparently delayed forensic scrutiny of the flat, which occurred after the body was discovered

Failure of LE to provide the public a clear picture of how the victim would have appeared, based on what she was wearing when discovered - a situation which continues to this day

A difficult to take seriously focus by LE upon a pizza. Later, a missing sock became the focus

Failure of LE to secure the contents of garbage bins which were emptied prior to LE's publicised search through mountains of garbage

I can certainly understand criticism of LE's performance. It reminds me of the Janice Hogg murder and the five days forensic teams spent within a small, 3 bedroom flat. Yet they failed to discover the body which was beneath the bath. And they failed to find items thrown by the killer into the attic space

Hesitant to have a go at the police too much...as there is so much we, obviously, are not (neither should be) privvy to. However, the Clifton Bridge Saga will surely go down in the history books of crime as a total waste of resources...when other, obvious to those with a microscopic brain, avenues were not pursued. Who....even in their greatest hour of panic...would go over a toll bridge whose cameras are so very obvious (to stop jumpers from the bridge). I would have given one community officer the task of sifting through the useless video footage from there. The other (God knows how many)officers could have been collecting ALL CCTV footage from ALL the shops on her route. It is up to the police to see whether or not there is something of interest on the CCTV..NOT the shopkeeper. After all, do we rely on shopkeepers to keep us safe? Do we expect them to apprehend the perp when one of our loved ones is murdered? NO...we expect the police...we pay the police and therefore have the right to demand that the police do what we pay them for.

Let's hope they surprise us all....IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE...with the evidence against and swift arrest of the guilty party. Our trust is in them...they must not let us down.

 

[laserdisc10]

Wasn't that before the body had been thawed and the full post-mortem taken place ?

I dare say it was only after body-thaw and post mortem that the 'constriction' was discovered. Which means that initially, there may not have been obvious signs to indicate cause of death - hence they opted for hypothermia

If there had been bruising left by finger pressure caused by manual strangulation, they would have opted immediately for strangulation, no doubt. Only after the post mortem and dissection of the body, would the 'constriction' have made itself obvious

The fact the body was frozen does not mean of course that it was snap-frozen

It would have required several hours to bring the body's core temperature down to zero and several more hours to freeze it solid

During the several hours it took for the body temperature to drop to zero, blood would have pooled at the points where the body was in contact with the ground or whatever the body was placed upon. That blood-pooling would not have resume liquidity upon the body's gradually returning to room temperature at the pathologist's. The original blood-pool pattern would have remained and would have been obvious/visible. If the body had been moved to a second or third location and placed slightly differently upon whatever surface, then the pathologist should also be able to determine this. Which is why I don't understand why the media is claiming police still don't know if the body was moved to the quarry entrance at a later time. They'd know if the body had been moved or if it had been in the one location throughout, surely ?

Freezing of a body doesn't eliminate tissue-damage/signs of tissue damage, obviously. And once the blood has ceased to circulate (at death) it may be that tissue damage/marks/bruising, etc. remain more visible than they would in a living individual whose circulating blood might minimise them. JMO

 

[otto]

There's two windows in the back Otto (I think)
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #3

All windows seem to be uniform on every floor on the buildings all around.

Thanks ... I added windows where they could be ...