UK UK - Joshua Clayton, 23, homicide or ?, Tresco Island, Isles of Scilly, 13 Sept 2015

[JuicyLucy]

Sorry, I hadn't listened to the audio recording, my bad. Still, I would think in terms of them as POIs rather than prime suspects.

Moving on/broadening things out a bit, I'm wondering whether there was ever any mention/suspicion of a homophobic dimension to Josh's death?

JMO

 

[ash_uk@somebody]

Here is the rosta in some sort of order that they arrived, groups arriving at similar times. No chronology yet - we will get into statements later.

Arriving from 23:15 onwards:

1 Oliva Shoemark
2 Tom Herman
3 Hannah Terry
4 Isla Stanton
5 Paul Brown Arrived Shed with Josh at 23:30 / 23:45
6 Josh Clayton
7 Laura Bray
8 Jasmin Callan
9 Heather Meyrick
10 Charlie Gigg
11 Zsolt Bakongi
12 Ference Baranyay
13 Leroy Thomas


14 Lanyon Harding
15 Tristan Dorrien-Smith
16 Dave Johnson
17 Stacey Mathias
18 Sarah Skeate
19 Adam Way
20 Tess Hillier
21 Harlie Thomas Holden
22 Duffy Bloomfield Crowe
23 Amirah Haffar

Arriving just before or around midnight (cross checks needed)

24 Fran Dudley
25 Amber Philipson
26 Amber Rees
27 Caroline Bennett
28 Josh Nicholls
29 Daniel Stone
30 Katie Hayne
31 Katie Ronaldson
32 Maarja Rand
33 Hannah Abnett
34 Jamie Parkes
35 Polly Edwards
36 Amy Finney
37 Joe Dunn
38 Lyndsay Walker
39 James Norcott
40 Liam Caves
41 Logan Melley
42 Matthew Goodall
43 Jacob Rogers

Arriving after midnight (cross check against any statements needed):

44 Lydia Parry
45 Desi Terzieva
46 Jorge San Miguel
47 Melinda Balla
48 Dyanko Komitov
49 Tina Peevsha

______

 

[JuicyLucy]

OK, I've got another question. I'm really hoping there'll be some more knowledgeable people than me along to look at this.

I was going back through the thread and saw the grid reference given for where Josh's body was found: XM9J+GG Isles of Scilly. When I looked at that on Google maps, it's the uninhabited island of Teän. I expected it to be quite close to St Mary, the island he went missing from, and was surprised to see that it isn't really (these things are relative obviously, it's only 3.5 miles, but it's not the 'nextdoor' island). If you had private use of a small vessel, it's almost as far from St Mary as you can get without finding yourself out in the open ocean. There are also quite a few islands or areas of shallowly submerged land between the two locations where a body might be expected to wash up without going as far as Teän in my (admittedly very ignorant) opinion.

I wondered whether this is what would be expected of a body drifting for a week+ or whether it would be good practice to try and explicitly rule out the use of the very remote Teän as a disposal site. Do we have any maritime sleuths here? If not, I will try and find some on another thread and ask them to kindly take a look.

@ash_uk@somebody Do you know if there was ever any scrutiny of the prevailing tides and weather conditions at the time, to try and shed any light on whether Josh being discovered on Teän is plausible as a random event?

JMO

 

[ash_uk@somebody]

No he went missing from Tresco. Smaller island north of St Mary’s.

 

[JuicyLucy]

No he went missing from Tresco. Smaller island north of St Mary’s.

Oh no, my mistake, sorry. There is so much information to take in. I had it in my mind that it was the largest island of St Mary where pretty much everything happens. Tresco is much closer to Teän, so that would make it a more plausible place for him to be found. Even so, I think I would want the police to have looked at tides etc in deciding whether it was a suspicious death (or rather, before acting on the assumption that it wasn't). It would be interesting to know if they did.

JMO

 

[ash_uk@somebody]

Weather exported from Wunderground, file was created in 2016.

Regarding the tides, I have this document I was working on the evening Josh was actually found. I was already starting to make notes and compare everything I was hearing / checking where I could. I would have been able to find the tide times easily so close to the event, I can't find my screenshots of specific tide times to back it up but have screenshotted the note I made on 23rd Sept 2015.

It's hard now to get historical weather and tide information. Unless anybody knows better?

There will be weather stuff all in the disclosure somewhere. I will grab it and scan in when I find time.

A lot of witnesses discuss the weather that night.

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

Weather exported from Wunderground, file was created in 2016.

Regarding the tides, I have this document I was working on the evening Josh was actually found. I was already starting to make notes and compare everything I was hearing / checking where I could. I would have been able to find the tide times easily so close to the event, I can't find my screenshots of specific tide times to back it up but have screenshotted the note I made on 23rd Sept 2015.

It's hard now to get historical weather and tide information. Unless anybody knows better?

There will be weather stuff all in the disclosure somewhere. I will grab it and scan in when I find time.

A lot of witnesses discuss the weather that night.

Did anyone from the police consider whether JC's body was found in an 'appropriate' place given the local sea conditions and time missing? Was this ever discussed?

 

[ash_uk@somebody]

Did anyone from the police consider whether JC's body was found in an 'appropriate' place given the local sea conditions and time missing? Was this ever discussed?

Everything was relied upon from witness testimony of Clive Sibley. Local knowledge was the only and best way to know the water current behaviour etc. He is a fuel merchant and lifeboat crewman.

I don't think there was any issues taken with the idea that a body would end up where it did if it had entered the water on that side of Tresco. I will need to dig out anything specific from the paper cache.

 

[ash_uk@somebody]

This is the Kurun boat I have tried to contact through the Chatau Marina in Brest. No such luck.

The other two Kurun's have got back to me already.

 

[JuicyLucy]

I'm pretty sure there are only two Kuruns, based on the MMSIs. I've PM'd you ownership info for them both now. I originally ruled out the historic one. The Kurun Bihan is a French state-owned SAR vessel.
KURUN BIHAN - Search and Rescue vessel (MMSI: 227959760) | MyShipTracking

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

Everything was relied upon from witness testimony of Clive Sibley. Local knowledge was the only and best way to know the water current behaviour etc. He is a fuel merchant and lifeboat crewman.

I don't think there was any issues taken with the idea that a body would end up where it did if it had entered the water on that side of Tresco. I will need to dig out anything specific from the paper cache.

Ok that's good.

Next question: Do you have or can you get written accounts from the eastern European workers about what happened that night, involving them, Josh and LT, starting outside the shed?

 

[Tortoise]

Ok that's good.

Next question: Do you have or can you get written accounts from the eastern European workers about what happened that night, involving them, Josh and LT, starting outside the shed?

"The new jury at Plymouth Coroners Court were told that neither foreign worker was ever identified and the claim by Mr Thomas was not corroborated by anyone else on the island."

Family's questions go unanswered over mystery death of man, 23

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

"The new jury at Plymouth Coroners Court were told that neither foreign worker was ever identified and the claim by Mr Thomas was not corroborated by anyone else on the island."

Family's questions go unanswered over mystery death of man, 23

True, however in OP's roster further up he lists these men with eastern European names:

Zsolt Bakongi
Ferenc Baranyay
Dyanko Komitov

I can place at least two of them on the island just by open sources of information.

If someone has lied to a Coroners Court, they have perjured themselves.

 

[Tortoise]

Might be a silly question, but does the New Inn sell cans of beer for takeaway?

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

Might be a silly question, but does the New Inn sell cans of beer for takeaway?

Yep, that's what LT said in his evidence at the Coroner; that he bought cans there and took them to the party, like many others did.

 

[Tortoise]

Yep, that's what LT said in his evidence at the Coroner; that he bought cans there and took them to the party, like many others did.

Which is why I'm looking for independent verification that they can be bought there.

I've been wondering because the court seemed surprised (in my opinion) when he said he did.

(my transcript)
Q: Yes. Help us in this way. Did people have to take their own drinks there?
LT: Um, correct yes.
Q: So there was no means of purchasing anything or obtaining anything there.
LT: Not that I could see, no.
Q: Okay, had that led you to take anything else, to drink whilst there?
LT: I t…t…took four cans of
Q: YOU took four cans…
LT: took four cans of lager with me.
Q: Okay. And is that what other people had done?
LT: I believe so, yes.
Q: And just to help us, where were you able to buy those?
LT: Uh from the New Inn. Before we left for the party.
Q: Okay. Thank you for that, that’s extremely helpful.
---

Also, I have been wondering if for instance some beers were stolen from a rucksack left unattended by the entrance, it might have led to a problem. Not that I've seen any such suggestion in anything I've read, it's a hypothetical scenario.

 

[Tortoise]

I've found a couple of pictures of Josh wearing a rucksack. I wonder if it's the rucksack he had with him at the party, and found on his body, over his face.

Death riddle on wealthy holiday island | News | The Times

Copper with 'Britain's cushiest beat' on Scilly Isles blasted for his handling of Taunton man's death

Firstly, I don't understand how the rucksack could naturally have moved over his head. One of the other questions I have is if the bag was unzipped and his head inside the cavity of the bag, or if the whole bag was just in front of his face, with his arms still inside the straps.

Secondly, for his portable phone charger and unopened pack of cigarettes, presumably both items he carried in his rucksack, to have been dropped in the mud, the rucksack must have been unzipped and upside down - not on his back. Other scenarios could be that he was already incapacitated at that time and place, and being transported, with the unzipped bag on his back and the contents allowed to spill out, or he was knocked/fell to the ground at that spot with an open bag. If he was cycling I find it improbable that both his bag was unzipped and that items fell out 50 metres away from the bike.

Just a few rambling thoughts and questions.

 

[ash_uk@somebody]

Might be a silly question, but does the New Inn sell cans of beer for takeaway?

The island is private, i think they have their own bylaws, so think and so the sell or consumption of alcohol is just like you providing it for somebody in your private home. This is my understanding.

You're not allowed to just rock up on this island, although you could it is likely you'd be removed if you're not officially there. You need to get permission to go. It's totally private.

Specifically yes, beers were taken from the New Inn to the party. It was a bring your own drinks setup at the Shed.

Josh also had San Miguel in his bag, believed to belong to somebody else but he was carrying for them.

 

[Tortoise]

The island is private, i think they have their own bylaws, so think and so the sell or consumption of alcohol is just like you providing it for somebody in your private home. This is my understanding.

You're not allowed to just rock up on this island, although you could it is likely you'd be removed if you're not officially there. You need to get permission to go. It's totally private.

Specifically yes, beers were taken from the New Inn to the party. It was a bring your own drinks setup at the Shed.

Josh also had San Miguel in his bag, believed to belong to somebody else but he was carrying for them.

Okay thanks, so Josh and his friend hadn't bought them before they got to the New Inn.

 

[ash_uk@somebody]

I've found a couple of pictures of Josh wearing a rucksack. I wonder if it's the rucksack he had with him at the party, and found on his body, over his face.
..
..
Firstly, I don't understand how the rucksack could naturally have moved over his head. One of the other questions I have is if the bag was unzipped and his head inside the cavity of the bag, or if the whole bag was just in front of his face, with his arms still inside the straps.

Secondly, for his portable phone charger and unopened pack of cigarettes, presumably both items he carried in his rucksack, to have been dropped in the mud, the rucksack must have been unzipped and upside down - not on his back. Other scenarios could be that he was already incapacitated at that time and place, and being transported, with the unzipped bag on his back and the contents allowed to spill out, or he was knocked/fell to the ground at that spot with an open bag. If he was cycling I find it improbable that both his bag was unzipped and that items fell out 50 metres away from the bike.

Just a few rambling thoughts and questions.

Attached info. Colin Taylor removed the bag from the body.

I do not believe any pictures were taken of the scene where Josh was found.

The body was moved I think the next day, he was found in the evening and kept overnight at St Marys. See attached.

I think Josh's coat was left at the party.