UK UK - Joshua Clayton, 23, homicide or ?, Tresco Island, Isles of Scilly, 13 Sept 2015

  • #61
We’ll have to disagree. All I’ve read is actual evidence on physical issues - tox, trauma, etc. Not surrounding circumstances. I wanted to know the scientific medical conclusions so that I could get a picture for myself, before looking at surrounding factors.

Surrounding factors aren’t relevant ones if they don’t show up in medical facts. You’re obviously an intelligent man - you must realise there’s a huge dose of cognitive dissonance here.

If I die right now, and my autopsy says no trauma, but someone claims I was bashed with an axe over the head, the autopsy is still correct.

I’d strongly encourage you to publish any witness statements you can, if you want to.

Josh could have been choked and the pathologist said to me at the inquest that he would not be able to tell.

Let me know your thoughts on the Leroy audio from the inquest?

I can start to think about the witness statements and how to get them up here for analysis. Maybe PM me.
 
  • #62
I've now listened to the audio recording of the inquest on 11 January 2017, specifically the examination of Leroy Thomas (LT) as a witness.

There isn't a reference to violence between LT and Joshua Clayton (JC). However the description of JC's altercation with the "Polish and Hungarian" workers at the back of the shed is disturbing and worthy of looking at.

Josh was seen walking off toward the thicket toward the beach, apparently shouting, followed by the said Polish/Hungarian workers.

Some questions @ash_uk@somebody :

- Were these workers ever identified?
- If so, were they ever questioned?
- Are there any other reports at all about these workers behaving badly on the island?
- How far did the police or the second inquest go in exploring this?

This would seem like the obvious route of inquiry, if there is one.
 
  • #63
Hello @ash_uk@somebody and welcome. I am so sorry about your brother; it's an awful situation that you find yourself in. I admire your tenacity on his behalf. I'm late to your thread and so I've just been catching up. Forgive me if I've missed or misunderstood something - there's a LOT of information to digest.

Based on your (excellent) summary, this sounds as though it would have been a confused picture under any circumstances, because of the fact that little is definitely known and can be backed up with reliable/neutral evidence (e.g. CCTV, murder weapon, whatever), then also a lack of consensus from witnesses and the problem of lots of those present being intoxicated. But on top of that you have a frankly botched police investigation, and, for various reasons, concerns about cover-ups (e.g. key players being whisked off the island; or the strangely subservient relationship between the police and the landowner).

Like @ApparentlyInDenial, I find myself very perplexed by the findings of the PM. I'm a (very rusty) medic, so if I have any special understanding I can bring to bear, this would be it.

You mentioned 'Delaney' - is this Russell Delaney we're talking about?

And that there was a reluctance on the part of the coroner to arrange a PM until the family offered to pay for it? Do I have this correct? If I do, then I would call that (practically) unprecedented. Even if the supposition was of suicide or misadventure rather than foul play, a coroner's PM would always be required. It was a violent, sudden and unnatural death and the CoD unknown. A coroner's PM is the bare minimum of enquiry necessary in such circumstances.

Then, you said I think that Josh's body was found washed up on a neighbouring island 10 days later, and that there was a delay of 12-14 days before the PM finally took place. Again, I find this incredible. The PM should have taken place as soon as practicable. You are absolutely right that decomposition in a body that has previously been in water is accelerated once it's removed. Any pathologist would know this. Was the delay caused by the wrangling about whether a PM was appropriate at all? It's really shocking to me, but, setting this aside, there are also a few unknowns here: firstly there is no telling if Josh was still alive when he went into the water or whether some degradation of his body would already have occurred before submersion; secondly there is no telling when Josh's body went into the water (entirely separate from the issue of whether he was alive or dead at that point); and thirdly, if I understand you correctly, there is also no telling when it was washed up out of the water, as the fishing boat that found it may not have arrived upon it promptly.

So there are a lot of unknowns around the issue of decomposition, and they relate (or may relate) closely to the issue of whether or not foul play can be excluded or must be included as a possibility. The 'best' case scenario (forensically speaking) would be that Josh was still on dry land for some time after his disappearance, died at some later point, and his body was only in the water for a relatively brief time before washing up and being discovered. (This would imply at the very least that someone had unlawfully disposed of his body.) The worst is that he was either already deceased on dry land for some time before going in the water, or that he was washed up for some time after being discovered by the fishing vessel. (There are various points in between, of course, which might each indicate a greater or lesser likelihood of third party involvement.)

I'm sorry, this must be so hard to hear.

There's a lot to talk and think about, but to cut to the chase, I have difficulty with some of the findings of the PM in conjunction with each other. The apparent certainty of the toxicological findings is at odds with the assertions about state of decomposition. The length of time taken to do the PM would tend to support the idea that the level of decomposition is the true finding, which casts some doubt over the toxicology. Nikolas Lemos is a toxicology expert. Did he have any comment specifically on that aspect of the PM's findings?

Why is this important? Well, based on your narrative of the night in question, I would personally be thinking in terms of drugs, including perhaps your brother having had his drinks spiked. It was said variously that he was tipsy/having a good time and that he was behaving erratically, even aggressively and 'out of character'. One of the witness statements iirc mentions him being 'weird'. If that sounds plausible, you might then be asking yourself: by whom? to what end? But you need to be able to get a steer on how reliable the PM findings are first before you can know if these are useful questions to be asking.

I would be very interested to see the report, but not unless you're comfortable. We could chat some more by PM first if you'd like to.

I have other thoughts but I think I've said plenty for now.

JMO, MOO
 
  • #64
Hello @ash_uk@somebody and welcome. I am so sorry about your brother; it's an awful situation that you find yourself in. I admire your tenacity on his behalf. I'm late to your thread and so I've just been catching up. Forgive me if I've missed or misunderstood something - there's a LOT of information to digest.

There is a snip of the tox report @JuicyLucy which shows BAC 0.19 and clear of all tested drugs:

UK - UK - Joshua Clayton, 23, homicide or ?, Tresco Island, Isles of Scilly, 13 Sept 2015

My argument is the decomp. would likely not have been hugely advanced to get a decent urine and blood test.
 
  • #65
There is a snip of the tox report @JuicyLucy which shows BAC 0.19 and clear of all tested drugs:

UK - UK - Joshua Clayton, 23, homicide or ?, Tresco Island, Isles of Scilly, 13 Sept 2015

My argument is the decomp. would likely not have been hugely advanced to get a decent urine and blood test.

Yes, I saw that but don't feel comfortable about its reliability. Under the circumstances, I would say the level of decomposition is more likely to be the reliable finding.
 
  • #66
Here is a picture of the shed and the track viewed looking south with the shed beyond the trees (hidden). Articles found in shot adjacent to the large tree line in the mud. The other image looking north where the bicycle was apparently found, it was in the end of the hedgerow there, pushed quite far in I think.

I need to find a fresh image scan of the bicycle, this is the best I can find in the local cache I have.
 

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  • #67
I've now listened to the audio recording of the inquest on 11 January 2017, specifically the examination of Leroy Thomas (LT) as a witness.

Some questions @ash_uk@somebody :

- Were these workers ever identified?
- If so, were they ever questioned?
- Are there any other reports at all about these workers behaving badly on the island?
- How far did the police or the second inquest go in exploring this?

This would seem like the obvious route of inquiry, if there is one.

Yes I have been trawling through LT stuff, there is a mention of giving a lad a dig, this lad possibly being Josh as he was being too wild, bumping into girls etc. He says this under caution in the interview the day after autopsy. I will keep digging, I am sure i have seen something else in cache. I could be overlaid thinking.

Okay the workers. Yes and No.

I actually tracked down one of the few eastern European girls really early on in all this, way before the first inquest had even taken place. I have a full chat log of my interactions with her. She gave me names of those in her group, you can find them on Facebook. I have even friended one of them. I have spoken a few more times on FB and even phone call with another.

The police spoke to this girl, I confirmed that after they had spoken to her. I need to dig all this out and can give exact times and some examples of dialogue.

The thing I remember is her shock, not knowing a thing about it. The party being not that rowdy. Etc. She remembers losing her phone and needing to go find it the next day, heading back down that way. It was found by somebody who gave it back to her. This is narrative again, sorry! I must dig stuff out, I need more exacting questions from you.

The truth is nobody mentions anything about eastern Europeans, there is no theme whatsoever on this matter. There were male and female in the group and they were lower profile than this other group.

The second investigation was a total whitewash. Nothing was probed, they best part of the year (TDS statement is 21 Sept 2017) to even get Tristan on the phone to discuss what Leroy had said.
 
  • #68
Yes I have been trawling through LT stuff, there is a mention of giving a lad a dig, this lad possibly being Josh as he was being too wild, bumping into girls etc. He says this under caution in the interview the day after autopsy. I will keep digging, I am sure i have seen something else in cache. I could be overlaid thinking.

Okay the workers. Yes and No.

I actually tracked down one of the few eastern European girls really early on in all this, way before the first inquest had even taken place. I have a full chat log of my interactions with her. She gave me names of those in her group, you can find them on Facebook. I have even friended one of them. I have spoken a few more times on FB and even phone call with another.

The police spoke to this girl, I confirmed that after they had spoken to her. I need to dig all this out and can give exact times and some examples of dialogue.

The thing I remember is her shock, not knowing a thing about it. The party being not that rowdy. Etc. She remembers losing her phone and needing to go find it the next day, heading back down that way. It was found by somebody who gave it back to her. This is narrative again, sorry! I must dig stuff out, I need more exacting questions from you.

The truth is nobody mentions anything about eastern Europeans, there is no theme whatsoever on this matter. There were male and female in the group and they were lower profile than this other group.

The second investigation was a total whitewash. Nothing was probed, they best part of the year (TDS statement is 21 Sept 2017) to even get Tristan on the phone to discuss what Leroy had said.

Ok:

Has anybody confirmed that there were male Eastern European workers on the island at the same time as JC?

That's the question ;)
 
  • #69
Ok:

Has anybody confirmed that there were male Eastern European workers on the island at the same time as JC?

That's the question ;)
I have a full roster. There were male eastern Europeans, yes. I am friends and follow two of them on Facebook.
 
  • #70
Glad that JuicyLucy mentioned drink spiking, which has been on my mind with regards to what may have happened to Josh.
rbbm. speculation, imo, fwiw..

https://www.camh.ca/en/health-info/mental-illness-and-addiction-index/ghb
''GHB (gamma-hydroxybutyrate) is produced naturally in the human body in very small amounts. When taken as a recreational drug, and especially when taken in combination with alcohol or other drugs, GHB can be extremely dangerous.''

''HB gained popularity in the 1990s as a “club drug” among young people for its euphoric and sedative effects. At the same time, GHB became notorious as a “date rape drug,” with reports that it was being slipped into drinks to facilitate sexual assault. Users of GHB include body builders who believe the drug can help to reduce fat and build muscles. GHB also stimulates human growth hormone. Some users claim GHB enhances sexuality''

''If you have a little too much GHB, the consequences can be fatal.
GHB can also cause confusion, unusual and disturbing thoughts and depression''.


Project GHB | A force of prevention
''GHB has been a difficult drug to catch in testing due to rapid dissipation from blood and urine in the human body.''
 
  • #71
Mum questioned the drug spiking. I have mentioned it to her again tonight. We will get back to you.

I am trying to find the advanced toxicology screening for designer drugs. I will get back to you.

Here are some extra clippings for info:

"Blood and urine screens did not identify any of the common drugs of abuse. I understand that drugs may have been taken at the party. The samples will be analyzed further to look for evidence of for example designer drugs, legal highs or
synthetic cannabinoids. However, I do not believe that this will alter the opinion with
regard to the cause of death.
Overall, whilst the circumstances and toxicology findings are suggestive of death due to drowning while under the influence of alcohol, the lack of positive pathological findings means that the medical cause of death provided is unascertained. " - PM report.

"Analysis of a post mortem heart blood sample identified a blood alcohol level of 199mg/100ml. The level was somewhat higher in the urine. These levels are too high to be explained solely by post mortem bacterial activity and in my opinion they are a reflection of ante mortem consumption of alcohol. For comparison purposes the blood alcohol level is approximately two and a half times the legal limit for driving although the nature of the heart blood sample means that this level cannot be relied
upon with precision. The precise effects of a given blood alcohol level on an individual can be difficult to predict due to the tolerance that may develop with habitual use. This blood level on its own does not provide an explanation for his sudden death but it clearly may have been a factor in him entering the water or being unable to extract himself from the water after entering. "

History section on the toxicology says:

"This 23 year old man was found dead on a beach 12 days after he was reported missing following a party. Post Mortem findings included marked decomposition".
 
  • #72
I have a full roster. There were male eastern Europeans, yes. I am friends and follow two of them on Facebook.

Prima facie, if anything did happen to JC, these guys would be the prime suspects right now.

Q: Have any of them they given an account for what happened that evening?
 
  • #73
Prima facie, if anything did happen to JC, these guys would be the prime suspects right now.

Q: Have any of them they given an account for what happened that evening?

Prima Facie. There is a specific example of this right here. I have a full write up on it in this case, the police taking zero notice of this piece of evidence.

Attached. Mod please remove if this is too much? Although this case is closed and the police were forwarded this email at the moment it was received.
 

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  • #74
Prima Facie. There is a specific example of this right here. I have a full write up on it in this case, the police taking zero notice of this piece of evidence.

Attached. Mod please remove if this is too much? Although this case is closed and the police were forwarded this email at the moment it was received.

Keep your mind open to other possible 'suspects.' You've put all your eggs in one basket - probably out of instinct and I'm sure many would do the same - and this might blind you to other worthwhile avenues.

The Poles/Hungarians have to give an account about what happened that evening.
 
  • #75
Keep your mind open to other possible 'suspects.' You've put all your eggs in one basket - probably out of instinct and I'm sure many would do the same - and this might blind you to other worthwhile avenues.

The Poles/Hungarians have to give an account about what happened that evening.

I need to get the old paper cache of all this out. I have not scanned and typed out all the eastern European stuff (i have read it I am sure, i've read everything and only gone to town on the evidence that seems relevant to me as it's evolved).

Give me some time... I think from memory that they didn't get in touch with everybody that went to the party, if that included eastern Europeans I am not 100% certain from memory.

But nobody else is mentioning this, nobody. Only LT. He said he told Tristan. Tristan said he doesn't recall.

LT is outside the shed on his own for sometime as multiple people put him as being kicked out, told to leave. Multiple people.

Others have said they witnessed no commotion at all and it was a really chilled out, good night. Narrative, sorry! :-)

I have this spreadsheet with cross check of witnesses who interact with LT. He is in two groups at the same time. No two groups seem to agree he is there.
 
  • #76
I need to get the old paper cache of all this out. I have not scanned and typed out all the eastern European stuff (i have read it I am sure, i've read everything and only gone to town on the evidence that seems relevant to me as it's evolved).

Give me some time... I think from memory that they didn't get in touch with everybody that went to the party, if that included eastern Europeans I am not 100% certain from memory.

But nobody else is mentioning this, nobody. Only LT. He said he told Tristan. Tristan said he doesn't recall.

LT is outside the shed on his own for sometime as multiple people put him as being kicked out, told to leave. Multiple people.

Others have said they witnessed no commotion at all and it was a really chilled out, good night. Narrative, sorry! :)

I have this spreadsheet with cross check of witnesses who interact with LT. He is in two groups at the same time. No two groups seem to agree he is there.

Ok so you’ve established LT is a suspect.

No investigation ends at one suspect. The Eastern European guys are also suspects and you have to do this justice and pursue every avenue diligently. So try to find whatever info you have about those other guys, and let us dissect it.
 
  • #77
Ok so you’ve established LT is a suspect.

No investigation ends at one suspect. The Eastern European guys are also suspects and you have to do this justice and pursue every avenue diligently. So try to find whatever info you have about those other guys, and let us dissect it.

I will do. Thanks again for everybody reading and all the effort you are putting into this.
 
  • #78
Prima facie, if anything did happen to JC, these guys would be the prime suspects right now.

Q: Have any of them they given an account for what happened that evening?

Hang on, have I missed something? Why would the Polish/Hungarian workers be the prime suspects?
 
  • #79
I will get the statements checked out. I have the second investigation cache but only selected bits are digitally prepared (by me).

I agree, we need to cross it off. I will start by counting the Europeans in the party and then show you who is with who.

I am totally confident I have spoken to those of interest (that are in a group together). They are not any area of concern for me. Really not. I have dialogues with some of them that just don’t seem like when I speak to other witnesses who pull rank or won’t even talk at all.

Some of the UK witnesses have even blocked me as soon as I’ve reached out to them. I really wish I could just have them give me 5 mins. No big deal.
 
  • #80
Hang on, have I missed something? Why would the Polish/Hungarian workers be the prime suspects?

From an earlier post:

I've now listened to the audio recording of the inquest on 11 January 2017, specifically the examination of Leroy Thomas (LT) as a witness.

There isn't a reference to violence between LT and Joshua Clayton (JC). However the description of JC's altercation with the "Polish and Hungarian" workers at the back of the shed is disturbing and worthy of looking at.

Josh was seen walking off toward the thicket toward the beach, apparently shouting, followed by the said Polish/Hungarian workers.

Some questions @ash_uk@somebody :

- Were these workers ever identified?
- If so, were they ever questioned?
- Are there any other reports at all about these workers behaving badly on the island?
- How far did the police or the second inquest go in exploring this?

This would seem like the obvious route of inquiry, if there is one.
 

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