VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Loobyloo]

<snip>

Good question, looking at the picture just posted, it does look very reedy. Could PR just have had blind luck? Doesn't have to be fully in the water, but then luckily tides rise and that helps? I don't know.

Perhaps he got her as far as the reeds & finished the job on trip 3.

 

[Loobyloo]

True noone knows. But i doubt from what the experts said( or rather the snippets we've heard) that she could wander in the state she was in. Jmo

He was not wearing boots but trainers. And the fact the police did not go to ORPF immediately afterwards and many people i would imagine walked the fields the next 2 days makes it more difficult to find any footprints i would imagine

I think if it was -2.5 degrees (figure given by expert as well as PR in his story-telling) the ground would be frozen & too hard to take the imprint of a trainer. This would be different from the fresh soft snow on pavements.
(ETA point about snow)

 

[Loobyloo]

<snip>
I fell across this whilst also having a look at the CCTV of the 4 people who were in the area between PRs visits- the last newspaper report I could find on it, no one had come forward and identified themselves.

I don't think we know, do we? They would have gone to the police, not the press. But as far as I know, they weren't called to give evidence.

 

[Becky53]

IIRC someone has posted this picture before from the Daily Mail. It gives a reasonable perspective as to what SA’s view was from The Lodge.

Libby Squire: Sister of Polish butcher arrested insists he's innocent | Daily Mail Online

 

[JosieJo]

All good points. Was the 350 something metre distance cited by the prosecution going straight on through the informal path through the tree line to the river or following the right hand dogleg to the proper path? If the latter it would suggest would it not the prosecution know for sure from the Mauri yeast CCTV Libby didn't enter the river in that section.

Were the experts directly asked whether Libby could make it on her own from the road to the river, and if not how far she might manage? If not were both sides too scared of what the answer might be?

The prosecution 350m seems to be as the crow flies
Even if you take the most direct route avoiding paths up to the side of the boathouse its more 450m


CALCMAPS - Map Tools

 

[JosieJo]

The prosecution 350m seems to be as the crow flies
Even if you take the most direct route avoiding paths up to the side of the boathouse its more 450m

View attachment 283137 View attachment 283138
CALCMAPS - Map Tools

I know distance and the 7.5 min has been debated to the point of headache but

450 metres based on a fast walk (as opposed to figures for slow and medium pace) ..takes 3 minutes ...we know at least part of the way back he was fast walking

Based on "the guiness world record for running with an adult as a fireman's lift" 450m would be done in 2min 45 seconds

So being generous to PR (as not a world breaker and not having a cooperative person on their shoulders) .. add on 45 seconds...3 min 30 seconds if runs all the way to the river bank

Leaves exactly 1 min rape and kill and when finished put her in the river

Fastest mile firefighters's carry.

 

[Winterbells]

I would like to add, for information, a site to check the moon phase for that night.
www.moonphases.co.uk
I will try to add a screenshot but not sure how.
If I have read correctly:
The moon was just a sliver of a crescent moon and not the full moon mentioned initially by SA, and it did not rise til 4.24 am, so it was no 'moonlit night' at the time that he saw the man running/walking.
And for anyone who has not heard one, the following site will play you just what a screaming vixen sounds like, and you can see how she stands to scream, then moves and stops to scream again etc, just like the witness reported gaps in screaming and that they seemed to be moving.
www.earthtouchnews.com/in the field/backyard-wildlife/video-this-is-what-the-fox-screams.

I'm not aware of any evidence that any of the 3 ORPF witnesses heard LS screaming.

Yes. Exactly. Very hard to work out whether that's a human scream or what, when you're not accustomed to it. And if mistaken for a human, it does sound like terror. We've heard a lot about Libby shouting and 'screaming' in the street before she encountered PR. If I were a jury member, I'd want to know what her screaming sounded like.

 

[Vermont24]

I really thought there were some steps down to the river by the boathouse. I'm sure I remember them from when I was younger but I cannot see them on the drone footage. My apologies if they are no longer there or if I imagined them as I have put forward previous possible explanations for how Libby might have got herself in the river that would not be true.

@Vermont24 am I going mad? Did there used to be some steps near the boathouse?

You're not mad, they're still there.

 

[Joolz1975]

Lightest sprinkling of snow here so would say unless anymore comes down the trial would be ok today.

 

[Newthoughts]

Did they find any of Libby's clothing fibres, hair, jacket, top after wandering around for goodness knows how long.
Possibly not if she'd had been carried.
MOO

None was mentioned.

They spent ages looking in the area and, @Strontiums videos suggested they cut a lot of brambles back.

 

[Joolz1975]

More snow now and the sky looks full of it. Only went to have a shower and it was like a blizzard outside when I got out.

 

[Niner]

Well - hopefully it will still be a "go" for today's deliberations...


Monday, Feb. 8th:
*Trial continues (Day 16)-VERDICT WATCH! (Day 3) (@ 10:30am UK) – UK – Liberty “Libby” Anna Squire (21) (last seen Jan. 31, 2019 outside Welly Club in Hull; found Mar. 20, 2019 from Grimsby Docks in the Humber Estuary) - *Pawel P. Relowicz (24/now 25) arrested (Feb. 6, 2019 on suspicion of abduction) officially charged (Oct. 30, 2019) with murder & rape. No plea entered yet. Not guilty plea entered on Jan. 12, 2021.
Trial began on Jan. 12, 2021. Trial will be in Sheffield. Richard Wright QC will lead, Mr. Woolfall prosecutor. Oliver Saxby QC for defense. Trial expected to last 6 weeks. Jury: 5 men & 7 women. Day 1 (4/2/21) of deliberations: 2 hours. Day 2 (5/2/21) of deliberations: 5 ½ hours. Total so far: 7 1/2 hours of deliberations.
Was originally charged (18/3/19 & 10/5/19) with 5 counts of burglary, 4 counts of voyeurism, 3 counts of outraging public decency & 1 count of receiving stolen goods. On Aug. 12, 2019 plead guilty to 9 charges including voyeurism (4 counts), outraging public decency (2 counts) & burglary (3 counts). Relowicz jailed for 8½ years.
Trial Day 1-14 (12/1/21 - 4/2/21) reference post #98 here:
VERDICT WATCH - UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24
Feb 5th, Friday, Day 15 of Verdict Watch: The jurors arrived & sent to the deliberation room until they’ve reached a verdict. Court adjourns for the day at 4pm. ~12:57pm: Trial called back on: the judge received a juror note. Requested evidence to be read back; a question whether they could read a witness statement. 1:07pm: Back to deliberations. 4pm: No verdict reached today. Jurors have been told about forecasted snow in Sheffield this weekend. Back on Monday, 8/2/21 @ 10:30am.

 

[Newthoughts]

See, I’m open to hearing everyone’s opinion and ideas, but this is the one and only point I just can’t understand throughout any of the case.

I don’t think any of the evidence we’ve read gives any indication that he planned to murder that night, I think if it was him, that it was a result of the rape.

So to instantly just carry out the killing and disposal without any panic or thought process is the one thing I can’t get a scenario round, that would be the behaviour of seasoned serial killers, I’m not sure that’s who PR is MOO

What plans would you be expecting?


We know he's not a seasoned serial killer nobody has suggested he is but out of curiosity what is their behaviour anyway?

What are their starting plans?

Why did PR go straight to the park instead of Endsleigh?

Why no hesitation going there?

What was the drone footage for?

Why would killing someone as a result of a violent act not count under the law as we've understood it? If he'd killed as a result of rape that is murder isn't it?

Has he planned before? Go to features against PR in this article and look at no 6

https://www-hulldailymail-co-uk.cdn...news/pawel-relowicz-jailed-judge-said-3220311

 

[Newthoughts]

His crimes seem opportunistic but they could be more planned than we think. Police said his previous crimes would have to had an element of planning because how would he have known when to enter their houses.

Obviously it was by chance he came across LS that night, but he was planning on finding someone. This could have been a fantasy he played out in his imagination. His previous crimes may have only been voyeurism because the victim wasn’t in the vulnerable position LS was in.

If you go to the features that go against Relowizc when he was sentenced for his previous crimes and look at number 6

https://www-hulldailymail-co-uk.cdn...news/pawel-relowicz-jailed-judge-said-3220311

 

[JosieJo]

Hoping the jury can attend safely for the court today
I'm wondering if no verdict by lunch time the Judge may offer a majority

 

[JosieJo]

See, I’m open to hearing everyone’s opinion and ideas, but this is the one and only point I just can’t understand throughout any of the case.

I don’t think any of the evidence we’ve read gives any indication that he planned to murder that night, I think if it was him, that it was a result of the rape.

So to instantly just carry out the killing and disposal without any panic or thought process is the one thing I can’t get a scenario round, that would be the behaviour of seasoned serial killers, I’m not sure that’s who PR is MOO

I agree nothing we have heard suggests planning prior to him happening upon libby and even then I believe his only plan was too take advantage of her vulnerability for sex

 

[Newthoughts]

The judges pre sentence comments from PRs first trial are well worth reading for anyone that still doubts elements of planning.

We didn't hear many details at that trial because at the very last minute PR changed his plea to guilty to the ones with the most evidence. The others were left on file.

So basically all that went into the courtroom and therefore the public domain was the most basic evidence. Of which there was a lot.

For sentencing purposes tho - the judge will have seen everything and I think number 6 in the list of features against PR is very noteworthy.

With more detailed knowledge of just one of his crimes I would agree.

It's also worth noting that the judge describes him as dangerous.

https://www-hulldailymail-co-uk.cdn...news/pawel-relowicz-jailed-judge-said-3220311

 

[Newthoughts]

I agree nothing we have heard suggests planning prior to him happening upon libby and even then I believe his only plan was too take advantage of her vulnerability for sex

In the summing up for PRs previous trial the judge said that:

"I am entirely satisfied that these crimes were planned and did not arise on the spur of the moment"

You say you believe his only plan was to take advantage of her vulnerability?

Surely that could happen anywhere? It could have happened in Endsleigh? Dark spot - run away.

Why would somebody plan a rape to the extent of a appropriate location and miss out its conclusion - removal of evidence?

I'm genuinely curious

That judge also called him dangerous

 

[JosieJo]

In the summing up for PRs previous trial the judge said that:

"I am entirely satisfied that these crimes were planned and did not arise on the spur of the moment"

You say you believe his only plan was to take advantage of her vulnerability?

Surely that could happen anywhere? It could have happened in Endsleigh.

Why would somebody plan a crime to the extent of a location and miss out it's conclusion - removal of evidence?

I'm genuinely curious

That judge also called him dangerous

Due to the multiple counts of his crimes at his previous trial , his collection of trophies from various crimes in his boot , the amount of times he went out at night day after day ...there is no doubt those crimes were planned ..how could they not be

You cannot compare planning on a previous trial and automatically relate it to planning on something he has never done before a different crime at a different trial

I think the reason he didn't make advances on her in the Endsleigh Centre is obvious..its on a main road and if she started to scream and protest there would be people passing

I do not think he planned to take her or "someone" that night to the park ..it was just the nearest obvious choice once he planned to get her in the car ...the nearest open space in an area he frequented for voyeurism and his other "pass times"

I think the only thing he planned that night was his usual stuff until he saw libby

 

[Newthoughts]

Due to the multiple counts of his crimes at his previous trial , his collection of trophies from various crimes in his boot , the amount of times he went out at night day after day ...there is no doubt those crimes were planned ..how could they not be

You cannot compare planning on a previous trial and automatically relate it planning on something he has never done before

I think the reason he didn't make advances on her in the Endsleigh Centre is obvious..its on a main road and if she started to scream and protest there would be people passing

I do not think he planned to take her or "someone" that night to the park ..it was just the nearest obvious choice once he planned to get her in the car ...the nearest open space in an area he frequented for voyeurism and his other "pass times"

I think the only thing he planned that night was his usual stuff until he saw libby

So you're saying he didn't attack her in Endsleigh because he was worried about consequences? Isn't that pre meditation? I might get caught? Doesn't that give opportunities to stop?

If he was planning to just have sex why would he get caught?

If you look at suggested ways of drawing inferences listed earlier from the research article posted by #bos doesn't it mention looking at how things happen in the real world as a clue to what's most likely scenario?

If somebody has planned previous crimes why would they suddenly stop planning their next ones? Why would they only plan half of it?


Why would he go to the park earlier?