UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

[Winterbells]

I think after he stopped at the park and Libby was out of the car, he started his routine of masturbating, and she fled as best she could, away from him and towards the river, screaming as he caught her. He may have grabbed her by the jacket sleeve, which could have easily come off. This could be the reason he returned later; to retrieve and dispose of it.

 

[Newthoughts]

I agree that PR's clothing is a problem for the prosecution as Sam Alford said the man he saw leaving the park was wearing a "Bomber Jacket" while the Tesco CCTV footage has him wearing a camouflage styled one.

Looking back at the newspaper reports from February 2019 the screams lasted from 00:15 to 00:30. Link

Is the Tesco footage from that night or just to give an idea of what he looks like on CCTV

 

[Newthoughts]

I think after he stopped at the park and Libby was out of the car, he started his routine of masturbating, and she fled as best she could, away from him and towards the river, screaming as he caught her. He may have grabbed her by the jacket sleeve, which could have easily come off. This could be the reason he returned later; to retrieve and dispose of it.

He could have done that two steps into the Endsleigh Centre tho. Why go to the park.

Her ability to run was impaired by her body temperature.

His testimony differentiates betwern sex and masturbating.

 

[JosieJo]

Agreed, specifically him ripping off letter boxes from a door of a women who he had offended against for 18months. That's a violent act in my opinion.

I presumed he did this to allow a better view rather than as an act of violence

 

[Winterbells]

He could have done that two steps into the Endsleigh Centre tho. Why go to the park.

Her ability to run was impaired by her body temperature.

His testimony differentiates betwern sex and masturbating.

I'm not saying he didn't rape Libby. Or that he's not the reason she's dead. He's guilty of rape and murder in my view.
I don't know why he didn't masturbate at her in the Endsleigh Centre.
If the screams weren't heard near his car, she must have travelled some distance towards the river before she began to scream. Either he carried her, or she was being chased by him.

 

[Winterbells]

I presumed he did this to allow a better view rather than as an act of violence

I agree. I have a letter box that my postie manages to 'rip off' whenever he tries to ram an ASOS package through it.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I presumed he did this to allow a better view rather than as an act of violence

It would still indicate he took extreme measures to get what he was after.

 

[Winterbells]

It would still indicate he took extreme measures to get what he was after.

I agree. He has to get what he wants, for sure. No matter what.

 

[phildav76]

Is the Tesco footage from that night or just to give an idea of what he looks like on CCTV

Yes it was earlier that night. This is the page that has the court report on from near the start of the trial.

 

[Sooty]

I agree that PR's clothing is a problem for the prosecution as Sam Alford said the man he saw leaving the park was wearing a "Bomber Jacket" while the Tesco CCTV footage has him wearing a camouflage styled one.

Looking back at the newspaper reports from February 2019 the screams lasted from 00:15 to 00:30. Link

that’s very interesting - I presume that is mr Alford’s statement as it refers to ‘about quarter past 12’. This presentation of his recollection (specifically regarding the screams) differs somewhat from the presentation of it to the jury, and would tie in better with the other scream witnesses.
MOO

 

[JosieJo]

I'm not sure they can want him to be guilty? Surely they can only judge on the balance of evidence and the way that can be interpreted within the law. You can never be 100% sure it's mainly sure.

We don't know what the jury knows but from the very small amount we do know rape is a violent act which would cause harm which could lead to death and which he could have Stopped. That would be murder.

Just because rape is a violent act that could be stopped does not automatically mean murder it would have to be proved she didn't leave him alive



He stalked her and took her to another place - again opportunities to stop or to just rape. He could have done something in the Endsleigh Centre - dark, no cameras.

Whether she was dead or unconscious when put in the river if she died as a result of that act. That would be murder.

For me I can't see any other way in which I think I could reasonably explain his actions before or after that happened. Especially the later show of confidence that he wasn't going to get caught.

For me also I can't see any other reasonable way in which she could have ended up in the river given what we know from the expert witnesses on her ability to walk and run, from what I've seen of the river in the park and from where she was found.

Especially from where he claims to have left her which would have involved heading into the dark after a rape and getting to the river.

The judge at his previous trial believed his actions were not opportunistic. Therefore why would he change now?

His previous actions were geared towards terrorising women.

From what little we've seen of the expert testimony I felt what the pathologist couldn't absolutely exclude and what he felt was more likely of the explanations differed. I felt like he veered towards asphyxiation. Whilst that could just be the way it was reported the prosecution said they do not have prove cause of death anyway.

But thats my opinion and is only based on what we've heard which is a fraction of what the jury have heard.

But based on everything taken together I think he's guilty of the rape, which is an act which would cause harm that could result in death. He's guilty of murder.

When I say "want him to be guilty" I didn't mean in the the true sense ...rather how their thoughts are effected (and this can be unconsciously) by the type of man he is ...ie a vile sexual pervert

I do not think we can say its impossible she could get to the Riverside itself because of her walking and condition...if she went herself it leaves all the time in the world to reach there ..no time restrictions as it would if PR took her

Confidence in getting caught can mirror thinking you have not done anything majorly wrong ...how do we know which mindset allowed him to out again that night

The judges ruling in the last trial around his crimes not being opportunistic cannot really be applied to rape and murder as a totally different crime ...especially when he had no idea he would bump into a very vulnerable woman that night

His previous crimes were based on a need frighten women ...but he has never shown any violence or even touched any of them before

Personally I thing its not the jurys role to try and take any inferences from the pathologists wording ...if you pick certain phrases out and ignore others is not really allowed...this could be done by either side of the fence ...therefore the facts should be adhered to ..ie cause of death unknown and he wasn't going to be drawn on giving a "most likely cause" ..his words

To me he caused her death but just playing devils advocate regards what the jury might think
Obviously the judges summing up will give us the best idea ..but not sure we will get it all

 

[porkypies]

I agree that PR's clothing is a problem for the prosecution as Sam Alford said the man he saw leaving the park was wearing a "Bomber Jacket" while the Tesco CCTV footage has him wearing a camouflage styled one.

Looking back at the newspaper reports from February 2019 the screams lasted from 00:15 to 00:30. Link

Yes, and Libby was wearing a bomber jacket, so perhaps not necessarily a problem for the prosecution.

 

[mrazda71]

Confidence in getting caught can mirror thinking you have not done anything majorly wrong ...how do we know which mindset allowed him to out again that night

.......

His previous crimes were based on a need frighten women ...but he has never shown any violence or even touched any of them before

RSBM
BBM

B1 - IF he thought he'd done nothing wrong, even if he though the worst thing he'd done was 'cheat on his wife' - Why would he go home at gone midnight, bathe (whilst watching *advertiser censored* I believe) wash his clothes then go back out - would that not draw the attention of most partners?


B2 - As someone who has lived experience of the type of previous crimes - I would disagree with your belief that it isn't violent/violence if there's no physical touch.

Domestic violence is another example, domestic violence includes mental and emotional violence too.

Another example - burglary, you leave a door/window open and a man comes in your house threatening you and waving a weapon - but, he hasn't touched you ... respectfully, do you don't deem that as violent?

 

[JosieJo]

Yes, and Libby was wearing a bomber jacket, so perhaps not necessarily a problem for the prosecution.

Libby was wearing a biker jacket though and I do not think he would get in due to size

He was definetly wearing his camouflage jacket at tesco ...having seen him at 3 different spots as he walked off the park especially as it had snowed and so visibility ok that could be problematic



CCTV released of Pawel Relowicz on night of Libby Squire's 'murder'

 

[Vermont24]

Not to torture this, but IMO a bomber jacket is a fairly generic term, meaning a shorter jacket which hits around the hip and has a low collar. PR's jacket clearly has a hood and is more of a parka style, but it wouldn't make me question a witness testimony.

Local heard 'desperate' screams for 7 minutes the night Libby disappeared

As ever, apologies for linking to this particular publication.

 

[tedtink]

Agree.
Masturbating AT women is also a sexually aggressive act in this context - only matter of time before the crimes progressed imo.

 

[mrazda71]

Someone please jog my memory ...

Have we heard, when committing his previous crimes - did he walk from home to the nearby streets or did he use his car?

 

[JosieJo]

Agree.
Masturbating AT women is also a sexually aggressive act in this context - only matter of time before the crimes progressed imo.

I agree at some point he was going to go further i think the problem here is ..did he plan to find someone that specific night or did it not cross his mind till he saw a vulnerable woman..I know planning only takes a second in law but I'm just referring to it being opportunistic or long term plan

Also did it escalate to rape or murder and rape

 

[Joolz1975]

Agree.
Masturbating AT women is also a sexually aggressive act in this context - only matter of time before the crimes progressed imo.

Agree with this completely. It is a scary experience to have that happen (happened to me and a friend when we were 16 walking home through a park, heard a cough at the side of some bowling greens, turned around to see a guy stood under a light pleasuring himself and he never took his eyes off us the whole time) really creepy.

 

[Joolz1975]

I agree at some point he was going to go further i think the problem here is ..did he plan to find someone that specific night or did it not cross his mind till he saw a vulnerable woman..I know planning only takes a second in law but I'm just referring to it being opportunistic or long term plan

Also did it escalate to rape or murder and rape

I dont think he planned to rape and murder that night but I do think he was planning to escalate his behaviour at some point and Libby was unfortunately the perfect victim for him to progress.

I am not 100% sure if he would have attempted it with someone that was not as vulnerable and likely to fight back.

I do think he had been heading that way though.