UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[Newthoughts]

Why did she not go home ? Why did she go to another house ? Why sit on the floor ? Why ask passers by to lie on the floor with her ...how can it be ignored that she was so unwell and vulnerable at that time anything is possible

Yes and who took her - unwell and vulnerable - to that park.

 

[Alyce]

If the jury cannot come to an unanimous or majority verdict for murder,could she then introduce the option for manslaughter?

Yes I think that is possible, although I am not 100% on that...

I really hope he does not get manslaughter, he would get something in the region of 18 years ...and could be out in 9.
The rape sentence will run concurrently and so will his current 8 year sentence ( the one he is already in prison for )
The thought of him being out, age 35, either here or back in Poland, is an horrific thought.

 

[Cherwell]

I really hope he does not get manslaughter, he would get something in the region of 18 years ...and could be out in 9.
The rape sentence will run concurrently and so will his current 8 year sentence ( the one he is already in prison for )
The thought of him being out, age 35, either here or back in Poland, is an horrific thought.

Whatever happens, he'll be out too soon.

 

[Dotta]

Yes I think that is possible, although I am not 100% on that...

I really hope he does not get manslaughter, he would get something in the region of 18 years ...and could be out in 9.
The rape sentence will run concurrently and so will his current 8 year sentence ( the one he is already in prison for )
The thought of him being out, age 35, either here or back in Poland, is an horrific thought.

I don't understand why concurrently. Rape is a different crime than exhibitionism.

 

[Jarvis1969]

The poster immediately above @Skigh's post.

Im sorry, I didnt see the post above? But thanks for letting me know, very helpful, I will go and have a look

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes I think that is possible, although I am not 100% on that...

I really hope he does not get manslaughter, he would get something in the region of 18 years ...and could be out in 9.
The rape sentence will run concurrently and so will his current 8 year sentence ( the one he is already in prison for )
The thought of him being out, age 35, either here or back in Poland, is an horrific thought.

IMO even if the jury don't find him guilty - the judge will think him guilty and will hopefully reflect that in the sentence for rape. JMO

The judge in his last trial shocked us all by running a series of low maximum sentences consecutively rather than concurrently because he was so alarmed by him so hopefully this judge will have similar tricks to use because I think he's terrifying. I wouldn't want to be a young woman in Poland if he's out anytime soon

 

[Ruthbullock]

Yep. That's my issue. At 12.15 PR says he's at the side of the road with Libby

So who screamed?

Why didn't he hear the scream.?

Why did Libby go into a dark park where she'd heard someone scream?

How did she get there so quickly.

Who was the man that wore similar trousers to PR.

Why wasn't Libby found in the middle of the parks

There was no screaming at 12.15- he awoke to a text at 12.14 and a minute or two later he heard a scream (one). He then heard 30 seconds to a minute later another scream and this continues intermittently (so not every minute or so) for the next four to seven minutes. Five minutes after 12.14 PR was in his car and driving away. Most people making a statement about screaming may put a word to describe length of time, but SA was very specific with his timings., he had to correct the prosecution when they questioned him- that says a lot about his confidence in his statement (SA is adamant it is accurate timings, which do not coincide with PR still being there)
ETA: potentially PR missed two screams spread a minute to so apart (which as was also stated by the same witness, quite common in that area)- even SA didn’t think anything of it until days after LS was reported missing.

 

[Newthoughts]

I don't understand why concurrently. Rape is a different crime than exhibitionism.

Most sentences run concurrently. However, the sentences for his last set of crimes were set to run consecutively which means he got 8 1/2 years for crimes with low maximum sentences to reflect the severity of the crimes

If the rape runs concurrently it'll only add a bit extra to what he's serving

He will be deported on release and i think he will kill again. So if you know anyone with daughters in Poland warn then

 

[Dotta]

IMO even if the jury don't find him guilty - the judge will think him guilty and will hopefully reflect that in the sentence for rape. JMO

The judge in his last trial shocked us all by running a series of low maximum sentences consecutively rather than concurrently because he was so alarmed by him so hopefully this judge will have similar tricks to use because I think he's terrifying. I wouldn't want to be a young woman in Poland if he's out anytime soon

I wonder if PR has British citizenship - after so many years in UK do the authorities grant it? If he is deported to Poland he will certainly be put on sexual offender list and under constant supervision. His life as a pervert as he knew it will definitely end.

 

[tigerowl]

I would have said as a sober man he'd have been far better at getting rid of evidence

As for not analysing Libby? We have her private medical records and an expert in hypothermia detailing what her behaviour was likely to be. Her blood alcohol level. PRs defence has got everything relevant to that evening.

Don't forget everything happening to PR is because of his choices. He chose to take a vulnerable girl from a busy street. Nobody forced him.

He chose to rape her. Nobody forced him.

Despite ample opportunities to tell the truth he chose to lie, lie and lie again.

He chose to terrorise women before that.

His choices!

I'm really sorry but I don't understand the point you are making in relation to how you have quoted me.

I understand that an innocent young woman lost her life and that this is a very emotive case but I don't think that should mean all of the information before us should be discounted if it doesn't fit the narrative you are looking for.

I am new to this forum but I have tried to understand the rules and be polite and considered with my points and my opinion is formed on all of the evidence I have seen and being devils advocate over it all. That does not in my mind, translate to suggesting that PRs behaviour was not appalling or that he did not choose the path he chose. Just that it cannot be ignored that Libby's behaviour that evening was that of a drunk, distressed woman who was not acting in a rational manner and that could have led to an end that did not include being murdered by PR.

 

[mrjitty]

We’ve not heard any testimony that he was ever violent to his wife, previous partners, or in fact anyone. He had no previous convictions for anything. Stories about his past may come out after trial.

Basically he is a pervy pervert who pervs, and, so far, has not got caught doing anything directly physical to anyone.

However, behind all that lies a psychologically dangerous, risk taking, sex obsessed man who has admitted to stalking women for his own warped pleasure. I would suspect many sex killers started off with more “minor” crimes such as voyeurism and sexual deviancy.

IIRC the escalation from "perving" to breaking and entering is a precursor to rape

 

[Skigh]

I wonder if PR has British citizenship - after so many years in UK do the authorities grant it? If he is deported to Poland he will certainly be put on sexual offender list and under constant supervision. His life as a pervert as he knew it will definitely end.

I think you have to apply for British citizenship ,it is not automatically granted. Things have obviously changed since brexit and I think it might be more difficult to be granted .

 

[mrjitty]

If he can be given consecutive sentences, can they start after his current sentences for his sex crimes finish? @mrjitty can you help with this one?

I don't know the answer to this. I am not familiar with UK sentencing practices.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes. It’s more common for concurrent sentences to be handed out these days, but hopefully his will be consecutive. And long.

Types of prison sentences

But in this case, these sentences are in a different trial to his sex offences, so I'd expect them to start immediately? Even if the rape/murder are consecutive

 

[Cherwell]

There was no screaming at 12.15- he awoke to a text at 12.14 and a minute or two later he heard a scream (one). He then heard 30 seconds to a minute later another scream and this continues intermittently (so not every minute or so) for the next four to seven minutes. Five minutes after 12.14 PR was in his car and driving away. Most people making a statement about screaming may put a word to describe length of time, but SA was very specific with his timings., he had to correct the prosecution when they questioned him- that says a lot about his confidence in his statement (SA is adamant it is accurate timings, which do not coincide with PR still being there)
ETA: potentially PR missed two screams spread a minute to so apart (which as was also stated by the same witness, quite common in that area)- even SA didn’t think anything of it until days after LS was reported missing.

Not 12.15, but I don't think we can categorically state that there was no scream before that. It could be that SA was awoken by a scream but wasn't consciously aware of it.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I think you have to apply for British citizenship ,it is not automatically granted. Things have obviously changed since brexit and I think it might be more difficult to be granted .

Unlikely he has British citizenship, he wouldn’t have needed it to live and work here, and wouldn’t have got it through family or marriage.

He’ll serve his sentence here - though actually I think he should be deported to a Polish prison, I’ve never understood why that doesn’t happen automatically - then be deported afterwards.

His days of walking and wanking the streets of England are over.

 

[mrjitty]

Also picking up on one of MrJitty's recent posts, for the defence to put it to the jury, you've heard my client's evidence, firstly the sex was initiated by Libby, secondly there is insufficient evidence to conclude he didn't reasonably believe she had the legal capacity to consent, thirdly the sex took place by the side of the road....but on the other hand if you conclude that's a complete pack of lies try this one, he raped her in the park but left her safe and well, she must have just fallen in the river, that's her bad luck, hardly his fault, he's not her dad, he's not responsible for her, you might feel him a tad ungallant, or even morally reprehensible, but that doesn't make him a murderer. How well is that going to go down? Moreso as his evidence is the polar opposite to this I do wonder whether as a matter of law they are permitted to advance this totally unsupported speculation, and whether the jury are permitted to consider it?

This is broadly my problem with him having testified.

It makes it hard for the defence to argue there was not time for him to do the rape and get her in the water - because it never was the accused's version

of course the Jury can still discard his version and consider this question

 

[Cherwell]

IIRC the escalation from "perving" to breaking and entering is a precursor to rape

I think with these offenders the behaviour ceases to satisfy, and so it steadily ramps up unless they are caught.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

But in this case, these sentences are in a different trial to his sex offences, so I'd expect them to start immediately? Even if the rape/murder are consecutive

You could he right, I’m not that familiar with what happens when there are two separate trials.

 

[Steve2021]

Why ?

That he didn't investigate whether his actions could be construed as rape may suggest there was no doubt in his mind over whether it was or wasn't. Given I think we all believe it patently obvious it was rape I was suggesting it was obvious to him too, and because it was obvious to him there was no need for him to check it out.