UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #18

[Vera_dci]

The cold temperatures can trigger symptoms such as wheezing, coughing, and shortness of breath. Even in healthy people, cold, dry air can irritate the airways and lungs. It causes the upper airways to narrow, which makes it a little harder to breathe.

IMO if he lay on top of libby during the rape she could have been easily asphixated given she was suffering from hypothermia. I dont think he strangled her as there was no mention of her bone being broken which is very common in strangulation but it's not unheard of for it to not be broken.

"The hyoid is the U-shaped bone of the neck that is fractured in one-third of all homicides by strangulation"

 

[JosieJo]

I seem to recall that too


I think there might be reconstruction in front of the jury in the actual park perhaps?

Yes I think a big part of the both sides case will revolve around proving / disproving the timings

 

[Newthoughts]

Thats a very good point to make, especially given he would be pumped full of adrenaline at the time.

Although I still think the timings are incredibly tight.

They are but they are possible and they are balanced against a complete lack of any plausible alternative explanation for the hard evidence presented so far. And he would probably be pumped up on adrenaline. So pumped he was out again and prowling less than two hours after.

I imagine a good idea of part of the timing will come from the later CCTV of him wanking in Alexandra road - add in extra adrenaline and excitement - and the rape could be quicker than that. The timing of the screaming is also a good clue.

I hate saying this but if she died or was rendered unconscious during the rape that's also less time.

There is the fact that the science highly suggests she did not drown. So somebody had to put her in the river. I also think he was more than capable of carrying her.

Then there is the fact he visited the park earlier on that evening. For what reason? To prepare? Familiarise himself.

And he returned to the park later. admittedly not for long but again he was capable of carrying her

 

[Marulinka]

The cold temperatures can trigger symptoms such as wheezing, coughing, and shortness of breath. Even in healthy people, cold, dry air can irritate the airways and lungs. It causes the upper airways to narrow, which makes it a little harder to breathe.

IMO if he lay on top of libby during the rape she could have been easily asphixated given she was suffering from hypothermia. I dont think he strangled her as there was no mention of her bone being broken which is very common in strangulation but it's not unheard of for it to not be broken.

"The hyoid is the U-shaped bone of the neck that is fractured in one-third of all homicides by strangulation"

Very good point! I am sure the prosecution will be bringing some medical experts in to explain such possibilities...

 

[HongKongPhooey]

,I always had interest in crime and court trials
before this trial strated I thought he killed Libby but this 7.5 mins sounds really too short to rape and kill someone so I'm not sure what actually happened there and I was wonder if anybody else have the same thoughts
I thought this forum is made for express our thoughts no just for agreeing constantly with others
he may be guilty I dont know at the moment base on evidence which is available for us I am not convinced 100% he killed her.I may change my mind later when more evidence will be available

Respectfully snipped by me (rsbm)

Please continue to express your thoughts Wilkela. Challenging each other helps us to think about things we might have missed.

 

[Officer Dibble]

I hadn't realised 'depression' was the reason he was signed off work. And he was due back at work the very next day, wasn't he?

Did he get himself signed off work so he could plan and plot an attack?

 

[Newthoughts]

There is no doubt this "man" is a vile dangerous predator and likely capable of killing ...I have no doubt he took her into the park and raped her ...but..as the cause of death could not be identified ..and drowning..even if unlikely..can not be ruled out by the pathologist I'm going to need more info myself to be sure he killed her...especially because of the very short amount of time in the park ..obviously there will be a lot more info to come.
He would have lied about what happened if he had raped or raped and killed so the lies are not unique to murder.
There is no doubt in my mind he "killed" her even if it was by raping her and putting her in harms way if not by his own hands at the time of sexual assault

She didn't show typical signs of drowning but it can't be ruled out. IMO, given the way scientists talk, my interpretation would be that she was not exhibiting any of her normal reflexes of a fully conscious person when she entered the water. The most obvious explanation for that would be dead or dying and therefore not capable of getting there herself.

However you cannot rule out drowning however unlikely.

But - IMO it's probably far more likely that PR had time to put her in the river than that she drowned in a non typical way. On the balance of probability I'd think the latter very unusual and the former more probable. But that's just my interpretation of what little we've heard. I'm sure there will be more detail later that should clarify

So I think however tight the timings, he threw her into the river at some point that evening.

 

[Marulinka]

What do we know about his behaviour the following days after the alleged murder? I know the fateful day he visited oak road playing fields three times. What about the following day or the day after? Im just curious really.

 

[JosieJo]

She didn't show typical signs of drowning but it can't be ruled out. IMO, given the way scientists talk, my interpretation would be that she was not exhibiting any of her normal reflexes of a fully conscious person when she entered the water. The most obvious explanation for that would be dead or dying and therefore not capable of getting there herself.

However you cannot rule out drowning however unlikely.

But - IMO it's probably far more likely that PR had time to put her in the river than that she drowned in a non typical way. On the balance of probability I'd think the latter very unusual and the former more probable. But that's just my interpretation of what little we've heard. I'm sure there will be more detail later that should clarify

So I think however tight the timings, he threw her into the river at some point that evening.

My worry is when the prosecution on opening is admitting to the jury that the cause of death was unknown and drowning could not be ruled out ..he is trying to soften the blow and bring in gently what the defence will show

 

[Officer Dibble]

I'm not discussing with the fact that they found his sperm inside her ,he probably rape her if they found his sperm in her body but I doubt he was able rape her ,kill her and back to the car in 7,5 mins plus disposed her body in 4 min during third visit
Your thinking is very simple pervert = murder
For me it is not definitely clear that he kill her ,no in that short period of time

But - she could have died from hypothermia, possibly.

 

[wilkela]

But - she could have died from hypothermia, possibly.

she could but she could not
the same about drowning
"Mr Wright told the court: “Although in many cases a pathologist will be able to determine what caused a person's death, there are also cases in which it is simply not possible to come to a sure conclusion based on their expert opinion alone.

“This is such a case.”
The pathologist said in Libby’s case the findings were not typical of drowning and Libby’s body showed no changes typical of hypothermia.

However, Mr Wright did tell the jury that this did not mean that Libby did not drown or was not hypothermic, but that those changes were not present during the examination.

He added that the pathologist considered whether Libby may have been subjected to a violent assault.

Mr Wright said: “The damage already done by the water was such that it is very difficult to say whether or not she had been injured before or after death.

"There was no significant injury to her brain that would have suggested an assault.”

we can only speculate

 

[LucyRocket]

It is also possible to die from being immersed in water, without drowning. Cold water shock can cause a fatal heart arrhythmia

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I'm Polish(but not from polish community-don't know what you mean by that?) I don't know him and my nationality has nothing to do with my views about what happened, I registered on this forum first for Grace Millane trial ,I always had interest in crime and court trials
Before this trial started I thought he killed Libby but this 7.5 mins sounds really too short to rape and kill someone so I'm not sure what actually happened there and I was wonder if anybody else have the same thoughts
I thought this forum is made for express our thoughts no just for agreeing constantly with others.
he may be guilty I don't know at the moment -base on evidence which is available for us- I am not convinced 100% he killed her. I may change my mind later when more evidence will be available

My apologies if I have caused offence, as stated that was not my intention, by Polish community I just specifically meant in Hull, in many cities where there are numbers of expats/migrants from the same place those folk often tend to move in circles together and build a local community that was all I was referring to. By asking if you knew him personally I wasn't trying to infer your points were invalid or you were biased, just wondering if you had any personal insight that we may not. You happened to join the forum around the same time as myself just a few weeks after Libby vanished and there are a few of 'us locals' that joined specifically for Libbys case.
I am very much of the same opinion as your self in that before the trial I was certain he was guilty, now with the 7.5 minutes, I can't be so sure at all.

Again apologies if my previous message was read as offensive I hope this clarifies the questions I was asking and why.

 

[TheCasual]

The timings really concern me.

Plus the lack of course of death does too.

 

[wilkela]

My apologies if I have caused offence, as stated that was not my intention, by Polish community I just specifically meant in Hull, in many cities where there are numbers of expats/migrants from the same place those folk often tend to move in circles together and build a local community that was all I was referring too. By asking if you knew him personally I wasn't trying to infer your points were invalid or you were biased, just wondering if you had any personal insight that we may not. You happened to join the forum around the same time as myself just a few weeks after lobby vanished and there are a few of 'us locals' that joined specifically for Libbys case.
I am very much of the same opinion as your self in that before the trial I was certain he was guilty, now with the 7.5 minutes, I can't be so sure at all.

Again apologies if my previous message was read as offensive I hope this clarifies the questions I was asking and why.

I could lie I'm Russian or Slovak- I speak both those languages- but I didn't want to, I'm one of millions of people around the world who have interest in court trials and just by accident happened to be the same nationality what PR but I'm not here to fight for PR .
I thought my nationality isn't important but I knew my English isn't perfect so I mentioned that it isn't my first language to explain why my gramma is funny.
I don't know Polish people from Hull I don't know anybody from Hull tbf ;-)
My daughter is Libby age and she was studying in Liverpool when this crime happened so we both was shocked and we was fallowing news about her ( it could happened to my child too!) . I remember we quite often talked about Libby and other missing student Daniel Williams (found later dead in lake)-they both was missing more less the same time-but it wasn't Libby who brought me here but Grace as I said before me and my daughter fallowed her disappearance and we wanted know what happened to her .
My daughter found this forum and sent me link I registered to find more information ,she also send me link to this thread just when she found trial is going ahead
So please forget about my nationality
of course I accepted your apology ;-) and I hope we can have interesting conversation in future x
ps,I found PR wife is now in relationship with another Polish butcher and have child with him so it looks like his actions didn't ruin her trust in men ,I'm also wonder if she will take part of the trial ,we see

 

[PitchforkRed]

I did wonder about the hyoid bone not being broken. Made me think he could have stopped Libby from breathing rather than manually strangling her. Held her nose/shoved a piece of clothing in her mouth? Her pants, even? Seems like the kind of thing he'd be into. Perhaps that's why he returned, to recover a 'trophy' and then ditched it. I don't think we've had any info on any clothing recovered from the body yet.

As an aside I just had to nip outside to put something in our wheely bin. Having to walk over snow-covered ground in zero degree temperatures in the dark...not nice, and I was barely outside for a minute and had a coat on. So sad for Libby and her family.

 

[HopeForGoodNews]

Thinking about the cctv from the yeast factory, I've taken a screenshot of the satellite view in relation to the playing fields and river. The yeast factory is circled at the top and backs directly onto the river

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I was just reading over some articles and found this, a little more info re those scratches.

Libby 'fought back as Pawel Relowicz raped her' murder trial hears

Hopeful the link works.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I was just reading over some articles and found this, a little more info re those scratches.

Libby 'fought back as Pawel Relowicz raped her' murder trial hears

Hopeful the link works.

Interesting. Was Libby left-handed? The scratches were on the right hand side of his face and body.

 

[HopeForGoodNews]

I was just reading over some articles and found this, a little more info re those scratches.

Libby 'fought back as Pawel Relowicz raped her' murder trial hears

Hopeful the link works.

Thanks. I'd missed the part about him telling his friend a different story.