UK UK - Mary Flanagan, 16, Newham, East London, 31 Dec 1959

[MelmothTheLost]

I have emailed the following query to PC Gentile:

With regard to the above, have enquiries been made for them in Ireland?



I wonder also if they could have ended up in Australia. If it’s true that Tom McGinty (or whatever his surname was) was a merchant seaman, he could have taken a working voyage to Australia and then applied to stay on arrival, sending for Mary when he was established. Alternatively they could both have sailed together on one of the migrant ships. The Ten Pound Pom scheme ran from the end of WWII and was supplemented by a Bring a Briton campaign from 1957. Two young, healthy British or Irish citizens were precisely the sort of migrants the schemes were intended to attract to Australia during those decades.

Do we know how close to Mary’s own disappearance Tom was last seen? Are any migrant ships known to have sailed from London at the time she disappeared?

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I have emailed the following query to PC Gentile:

Following my previous email, the below is my recent correspondence with Stephanie, now Stephanie Taysom, her replies posted with her permission.


PC Taysom to me, 11th February:

When we worked on Mary's case, we organised a lot of publicity in Ireland, including in national newspapers and on the internet.

I checked all the migrant lists then as well - unfortunately as far as I know, migrants were not obliged to show proof of identity when travelling, so Mary and Tom could have given different names.

I have tried to trace ships that were docked around the New Year's Eve, but these have been lost to time and there is no comprehensive record. I did however, fully investigate all the tides the week before and after, and it seems very unlikely that Mary would have fallen in the water and not been found, so we can rule that out at least.

As we do not know Tom's name for sure, it is very very difficult to do any enquiries about him. For example, there is no trace of a Tom McGinty working on any navy ship as a stoker, which is what Mary's family believe he did. We do know that Mary and Tom had an argument the day before she went missing.
Thank you for your ongoing interest in Mary's case - it was a difficult one for us to let go and we very much hoped we would be able to solve her disappearance.

​

Me to PC Taysom, 12th February:

Thank you for your reply. It’s a shame that all enquiries continue to draw a blank, and if I read your last paragraph correctly you have given up on this case in practice, barring anything specific to allow it to be reopened. The only thing I can think of with regard to the movement of ships in and out of London is Lloyds List, but no doubt you have already tried that and without being sure of the boyfriend’s name it probably couldn’t help. What is your feeling about this case? Do you feel that Mary ran off and may be still alive?

Would you be happy for me to share your email below with Websleuths so members know where the case now stands?

PC Taysom to me, 18th February 2016:

Yes, unfortunately we investigated all possible lines of enquiry and drummed up all the publicity we could, including interviews on national television and in every UK newspaper. Whilst her case remains unsolved it will always be 'open', although there is no one assigned to working on it.

My personal belief is that she was pregnant and this is what caused the rows at home in the days before she disappeared, and that her boyfriend had something to do with her disappearance, hopefully in a positive way, running away with her to be married under an assumed name. My gut feeling is that Mary isn't alive any more.

I'd be really happy if you shared my emails with the group - any clues that get picked out the better! I still think a lot about the case and try to re-visit it, it will probably be one that haunts my career.


Thanks for your help.

And this is where matters now stand. Clearly it's unlikely anything more can be done without new information.
​

 

[newham]

Just to add, Mary's familial DNA has been checked against all the unident bodies in the UK and none are a match. Do keep your ideas circulating and you can always email me at p229254@met.police.uk.

Thanks

PC Stephanie Gentile
Newham Police

 

[Robin Hood]

Did Mary have a middle name?

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Did Mary have a middle name?

It looks as though she had a middle name beginning with C. These are the birth registrations for Mary and her siblings. West Ham and Stepney are districts in east London and Spicer was the mother's maiden name. It's interesting that Mary was the only child with a middle name, and I'm guessing it may have been the name of one of her grandmothers or a fossilised maiden name of a female ancestor from several generations earlier. One branch of my own family still retains a former ancestral maiden name as a first and middle name for boys fully 200 years after the relevant marriage.

[SIZE=+1]Births Jun 1943 [SIZE=-2](>99%)[/SIZE][/SIZE]
Mary C	Spicer	W.Ham	4a	108
Eileen	Spicer	W.Ham	4a	113
Kevin	Spicer	W.Ham	5a	923
Brenda	SPICER	Stepney	5d	836

[TD="bgcolor: #cc9999"]Flanagan[/TD]

[TH="colspan: 6"]

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[SIZE=+1]Births Jun 1945 [SIZE=-2](>99%)[/SIZE][/SIZE]

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[/TH]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffcccc"]Flanagan[/TD]

[TH="colspan: 6"]

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[SIZE=+1]Births Mar 1948 [SIZE=-2](>99%)[/SIZE][/SIZE]

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[/TH]

[TD="bgcolor: #cc9999"]Flanagan[/TD]

[TH="colspan: 6"]

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[SIZE=+1]Births Mar 1951 [SIZE=-2](>99%)[/SIZE][/SIZE]

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[/TH]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffcccc"]FLANAGAN[/TD]

 

[Robin Hood]

Could it be Tom was a name he was known by but not his correct name, it might explain why there's no record. I found a ship sailing the cruise route from Southampton in the years around, and up to Mary's disappearance. It didn't sail in 1959 which might account for him being in London. This guy was a barman on the ship. IF I didn't mention it I'd kick myself if he was the correct man you're looking for
. Page 10, halfway down,
H405 Senior Assistant Barkeeper
McGinty, Robert H.

http://www.caronia2.info/crewlis560623.php

 

[MelmothTheLost]

There's an article about Mary in today's Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/fa...anagan-britains-longest-ever-missing-persons/

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Reading through all of this again, some aspects are puzzling.

In one of the sources it says that very shortly before she disappeared, Mary had a row with her father who objected to Mary wanting to break off her relationship with Tom. It's also reported that her father had originally introduced Mary and Tom so he does seem to have been very invested in the relationship. It should have been no skin off his nose if he introduced the pair to each other, they gave it a try and then one of them decided to end it. Is it possible that Mary was pregnant and the row was actually about that? And if she was pregnant, maybe it wasn't by Tom, hence her wanting to officially end that relationship.

It's also strange that her father introduced her to a young man whose information doesn't seem to add up. There was no Tom McGinty in the merchant navy, working as a stoker or otherwise. So just how well did her father know this man, and if he didn't know him that well why was he apparently so put out when Mary supposedly wanted to end the relationship? Clearly Tom was not the son of his best mate!

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Any possibility that McGinty was an American in the Navy or merchants? I know the father knew him. Possible the guy faked an accent? Just throwing that out there even though I doubt it.

 

[Ozoner]

Reading through all of this again, some aspects are puzzling.

In one of the sources it says that very shortly before she disappeared, Mary had a row with her father who objected to Mary wanting to break off her relationship with Tom. It's also reported that her father had originally introduced Mary and Tom so he does seem to have been very invested in the relationship. It should have been no skin off his nose if he introduced the pair to each other, they gave it a try and then one of them decided to end it. Is it possible that Mary was pregnant and the row was actually about that? And if she was pregnant, maybe it wasn't by Tom, hence her wanting to officially end that relationship.

It's also strange that her father introduced her to a young man whose information doesn't seem to add up. There was no Tom McGinty in the merchant navy, working as a stoker or otherwise. So just how well did her father know this man, and if he didn't know him that well why was he apparently so put out when Mary supposedly wanted to end the relationship? Clearly Tom was not the son of his best mate!

I wonder if Mary was pregnant before her father introduced her to Tom or if Tom was an attempt to replace a boyfriend whom the father disliked. The fact that Tom couldn't be located seems suspicious. Had any family members besides the father met Tom?

 

[Dion]

Where did her father meet Tom McGinty and did other family members know him? I'm trying to figure out if he even existed.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I wonder if Mary was pregnant before her father introduced her to Tom or if Tom was an attempt to replace a boyfriend whom the father disliked.

Interesting idea. It seems very unlikely she was pregnant when she was introduced to Tom as the Telegraph article says they were introduced a year previously. Unless of course she had been pregnant and subsequently miscarried.

The fact that Tom couldn't be located seems suspicious. Had any family members besides the father met Tom?

It seems Tom assisted with the search for Mary for several months but his involvement then petered out. According to sister Brenda:

(From the Telegraph article)

“We don’t know Tom had any involvement [in Mary’s disappearance] but it seemed funny [his assistance with the search] just petered out.”

So clearly Tom was still around for some time but who knows what happened to him after that.

What's not clear to me is how Mary's father and Tom knew each other. Her father was a labourer, which in that area may well have meant at the docks, which might explain how he and Tom met if Tom had actually been a seaman. Or they may have frequented the same pub or working men's club.

What this feels like to me is that Mary had a boyfriend but her father attempted to get her married off to someone he knew, but then Mary broke off the arranged relationship and debunked with her real boyfriend. At least that's what I'd like to think.

On the other hand, if she really was pregnant when she vanished, it wouldn't be the first time that a girl ran away with the father of her baby but was then murdered by him to get out of his responsibilities.

Also from the Telegraph article:

According to Mary, Tom had told her he lived in lodgings with a landlady, but when she discovered he lived at home with his mother, she grew suspicious and broke up with him.

So Tom seems to have had actual roots in the community there, which makes it all the more interesting that so little is actually known about him.

And:

“[Dad] was really strict with Mary,” recalls Brenda. “[But] he knew where she was when she was with Tom and he liked them being together.”

Which makes it sound as though it would be difficult for Mary to have been conducting a relationship on the side as well as ostensibly going out with Tom.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Just had a thought.

Suppose Tom was a railway locomotive stoker rather than a ship's stoker? London's dockland was served by an extensive network of railways for shifting goods into and out of the docks.

See here:

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/sh...977_b.jpg&sp=0e890ed8f3988a4fd0c0a28339d90788

 

[Dion]

If Tom was a local boy, living at home with his mum, he should have been easy to locate. If she had been going out with him for a year, surely her family and friends (I'm assuming she had friends that knew him) knew where he lived. He must have had friends who knew where he lived. So did he exist, and was known to many, but took off for parts unknown and not even his mother knew where he went??

More importantly, surely, the police interviewed him after her disappearance, so would have his correct name and address.

Did anyone other than her parents, see Mary between the time she stopped showing up for work and the time her disappearance was reported?

Her sister would have been quite young at the time, so some of her "memories" may just have been what she was told.

I find it very strange that her grandmother and other family members were not told of Mary's disappearance. So they had to be lied to, in order to explain why she was never around.

This case is very odd, and as I just found it today, I may not be understanding everything correctly.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Here's something interesting:

Kathleen A	McGINTY	W.Ham	5a	1881
Thomas	McCLELLAN	W.Ham	5a	1881

[TH="colspan: 6"][SIZE=+1]Marriages Sep 1962 [SIZE=-2](>99%)[/SIZE][/SIZE]

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[/TH]

[TD="bgcolor: #99cc99"]MCCLELLAN[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ccffcc"]MCGINTY[/TD]

The marriage of a Thomas McGinty in the West Ham registration district less than 3 years after Mary went missing.

What are the chances this is our man?

There are no births registered to this couple so it seems quite likely that they emigrated, possibly to Ireland if not to Aus/NZ/Canada.

[SIZE=+1]

[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]

 

[MelmothTheLost]

There's an article about Mary in today's Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/fa...anagan-britains-longest-ever-missing-persons/

Picking up on some information in this article:

Then, last summer, Brenda received a phone call from police in Edinburgh. A woman had just walked into a police station resembling Mary’s most recent age progression picture. She denied all knowledge of the name Mary Flanagan and insisted, “I’m independent, I can look after myself.” Brenda says: “She got very evasive. When they went back the next day she’d gone.”

I wonder if attempts were made to trace the woman concerned. Edinburgh's not that big a city (about 500,000 in the city itself and around 1.3m including the surrounding area). Showing the age progression picture around catholic churches in and around the city would be one obvious move, as would showing it around facilities for the elderly such as day care centres and suchlike.

What did this woman come into the police station for? If it was something neighbour-related that would help narrow things down as well.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Here's something interesting:

Kathleen A	McGINTY	W.Ham	5a	1881
Thomas	McCLELLAN	W.Ham	5a	1881

[TH="colspan: 6"][SIZE=+1]Marriages Sep 1962 [SIZE=-2](>99%)[/SIZE][/SIZE]

---

[/TH]

[TD="bgcolor: #99cc99"]MCCLELLAN[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ccffcc"]MCGINTY[/TD]

The marriage of a Thomas McGinty in the West Ham registration district less than 3 years after Mary went missing.

What are the chances this is our man?

There are no births registered to this couple so it seems quite likely that they emigrated, possibly to Ireland if not to Aus/NZ/Canada.

[SIZE=+1]
Of course they might have remained childless as an alternative.

Actually thinking some more, if this is Tom and he was still living with his mother at the time of his marriage, his mother's address would be given on the marriage certificate as the place he was living at that time. His occupation as recorded would also help confirm or not that it is the correct chap.
[/SIZE]

 

[4SAM]

I know in the old days if the family was not well off, the father would try to marry off the daughters in order to obtain connecting properties, stronger community ties. maybe her father wanted to marry her off in order to see her taken care of. Maybe he knew the fellow may be headed to america and then she could go and the family could have a link to America and move here themselves. MOO

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I know in the old days if the family was not well off, the father would try to marry off the daughters in order to obtain connecting properties, stronger community ties. maybe her father wanted to marry her off in order to see her taken care of. Maybe he knew the fellow may be headed to america and then she could go and the family could have a link to America and move here themselves. MOO

I do think it's possible her father was trying to arrange a marriage for her. Irish society was still highly patriarchal at that time, indeed it remained so right up to the 1980s when Ireland started to modernise following the country's accession to the EEC, now the EU. From what I've read, it was not at all uncommon for arranged marriages to take place between very young women and considerably older men so we shouldn't necessarily assume that Tom would have been only a couple of years older than Mary. He could very well have been 10 or even 15 years older.

I doubt that property considerations came into it. Mary's father was a labourer at a time when most labouring work was ad hoc and insecure. From the sounds of it, Tom's background wasn't much more prosperous. I also don't think the consideration would have been to use the young couple, if they emigrated, as a toehold in the US since the Flanagan family clearly remained in the UK.

I don't rule out the possibility that Mary and her supposed other boyfriend could have emigrated, but could they have gone to the US without having passports and leaving traces in shipping records? This was a time when few people in the UK had passports because mass foreign travel to the emerging Mediterranean resorts was just beginning to take off.

They could however have just got onto a ferry to Ireland. Despite Irish independence more than a generation earlier, there was still completely free travel between the UK and Ireland in both directions. No passport needed. If they did that, they could probably have obtained Irish passports because of their parents nationality, and emigrated from Ireland instead of the UK.

 

[shadowdancer]

If she was pregnant, perhaps she went off to a mother and baby home to have the baby, as was common for unwed mothers at the time. Then perhaps she didn't want to return home. Or perhaps she decided to keep the baby, but knew she wouldn't be welcome home with the baby in tow so she went off to start a new life with her child.

Or could she have died in childbirth? Although they would surely have contacted the family to inform them of her death - or would they?

In addition, its worth noting that abortion was not legal at the time. If Mary was pregnant and marriage was not on the cards for whatever reason, perhaps she sought a backstreet abortion and died in the process? Then the person doing the abortion had to get rid of Mary's body, so that he did not get prosecuted for carrying out illegal abortions.