UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #10

[Officer Dibble]

I see this (and alot of LL's Comms with colleagues) as coaching type behaviour.
She seems to persistently fluctuate between allowing 'symptoms' to escalate (either by standing there and doing nothing or through sloppy Facebook Comms) and 'fishing' for intel with colleagues, manipulating them to answer questions in a way that substantiates particular views and opinions. JMO

i too have had similar thoughts about this. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

I have read your links but IMO a lack of explanation for stopping feeds is not the same as providing evidence that the feeds were not stopped due to intolerance.
As I've mentioned on previous threads this does not negate the idea of embolism, just highlights weaknesses in the prosecution's case that baby I was as well as one might hope or anticipate for a baby of her gestational age.
As others have suggested it is possible that these ongoing historical issues (which may not of been wholly elaborated on) created an opportunity for LL.

Evidence that feeds were not stopped due to intolerance is the fact that feeds were restarted again without issues.

May I ask you to provide relevant testimony that they were stopped due to actual intolerance, please.

weaknesses in the prosecution's case that baby I was as well as one might hope or anticipate for a baby of her gestational age.

I've provided the testimony that there were discussions of discharging her at 10 weeks. She had been feeding without issue for 6 consistent weeks by then, tolerating larger feeds, and gaining weight. Her mum said she looked like she should be at home at 6 weeks. Please provide the testimony which says she was not as well as anticipated for a baby of her gestational age.

As others have suggested it is possible that these ongoing historical issues (which may not of been wholly elaborated on) created an opportunity for LL.

Please provide links for actual "ongoing historical issues", not suspected ones, but actual ones.

 

[Anxala]

I agree on the whole ..but taking photos of the words she wrote in the card ..are so different to actually sending the card which could be put down to not reading the room etc

I hear you but isn't that still just us saying this is not something we'd do, where we can offer our reasons for not doing it? If asked, LL could offer reasons for doing it that made sense both to her and us. At base, we don't know why she did it, what her thinking (if any) behind it was. She could just have wanted to keep it as a record of a card she sent, nothing more complicated than that.

We're always going to be at the mercy of not knowing why she did the things she did. They may have damning motivation and intent behind them (if guilty) but equally they may be wholly benign albeit just a bit 'odd' (if innocent).

 

[MsBetsy]

I have read your links but IMO a lack of explanation for stopping feeds is not the same as providing evidence that the feeds were not stopped due to intolerance.
As I've mentioned on previous threads this does not negate the idea of embolism, just highlights weaknesses in the prosecution's case that baby I was as well as one might hope or anticipate for a baby of her gestational age.
As others have suggested it is possible that these ongoing historical issues (which may not of been wholly elaborated on) created an opportunity for LL.

By all accounts, Baby I was "tolerating feeds" and expected to continue to do well at Countess. She must have been a good eater since she was 90 grams more than at birth, and babies usually drop weight after being born.

As far as I know there were no historical feeding problems mentioned. There was a five day course of antibiotics and after a "short gap," the baby was said to be "tolerating feeds very well." There was also bloodwork and x-rays ordered at that time. No mention of feeding issues.

As in other cases, I don't think there were any significant problems with Baby I until Letby came on shift. She was "very stable," despite the infection.

As LL said afterwards, it "always happens" to her. Everyone, including Lucy herself, seemed to notice the sudden deterioration of patients when she worked the night shifts.

 

[Dotta]

"A radiologist told the Lucy Letby trial 'it stands to reason' a deliberate injection of air was the most likely explanation for a baby's stomach to become 'massively' swollen."

Expert says 'it stands to reason' Lucy Letby injected baby with air

Letby, 33, originally from Hereford, is on trial accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 others. She denies all the charges.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[sapphireminds]

Babies on CPAP and who receive positive pressure ventilation (neopuff though a non-breathing tube) often have massive amounts of air in their belly. It can make it more difficult for them to breathe on their own, usually means they breathe more shallowly, but it does not cause a heart to stop or even make it impossible to ventilation with positive pressure again, just more challenging.

 

[MsBetsy]

Please provide the testimony which says she was not as well as anticipated for a baby of her gestational age.


The mother had felt the atmosphere in the hospital 'had changed' and she had concerns whether Child I would be able to go home. She asked a nurse if that could be the case, and the nurse replied 'We'll see - she comes off antibiotics on Wednesday, so we'll see'.

I think she said that after the alleged attacks on Baby I had already started. The first was when Letby returned to work on September 30th.

There was one on October 12th and 14th, and after the last attempt, October 22nd, the baby finally died.

When the baby was transferred back to the Countess on October 17th the mother said she didn't look herself and was "looking right through me."

So by then there had been three alleged attacks before the final attack on October 22.

Baby I put up a fierce fight, imo.

 

[marynnu]

100% correct, NEC is a risk associated with an immature gut. It only develops when milk is introduced, hence the caution in introducing milk to very preterm babies & using breast milk rather than formula as it's gentler on the gut.

 

[Dotta]

Babies on CPAP and who receive positive pressure ventilation (neopuff though a non-breathing tube) often have massive amounts of air in their belly.

Really?
It sounds scary!

I would be afraid that this "massive amount of air" might cause their tiny bellies to burst

 

[esther43]

<modsnip - removed>

. She had been feeding without issue for 6 consistent weeks by then,

I have not seen that written anywhere apart from here and it does not explain why all these bowell related tests were required over a consistent period of time.

 

[armchairdetective123]

As a mother of two small children under 3 this case terrifies me. My children weren't premies, but to know that a nurse is accused of attacking vulnerable newborns is very painful.

 

[marynnu]

Really?
It sounds scary!

I would be afraid that this "massive amount of air" might cause their tiny bellies to burst

Don't worry! If a baby is on CPAP the stomach is aspirated regularly to empty out any air.

 

[Tortoise]

I have not seen that written anywhere apart from here and it does not explain why all these bowell related tests were required over a consistent period of time.

If you're saying that a 24-hour pause in feeds (being the only time feeds were stopped between 4 weeks old and 10 weeks old) the night and day following the first alleged attempted murder, demonstrates a milk intolerance, and "highlights a weakness in the prosecution's case", I can only say I look forward to hearing that from the defence in their cross-examination of the medical experts. This "milk intolerance" that only happened on the three shifts LL was working sounds to me as if it will raise a few eyebrows in court, IMO.

JMO

 

[esther43]

If you're saying that a 24-hour pause in feeds (being the only time feeds were stopped between 4 weeks old and 10 weeks old) the night and day following the first alleged attempted murder, demonstrates a milk intolerance, and "highlights a weakness in the prosecution's case", I can only say I look forward to hearing that from the defence in their cross-examination of the medical experts. This "milk intolerance" that only happened on the three shifts LL was working sounds to me as if it will raise a few eyebrows in court, IMO.

JMO

IMO at 4 weeks of age bowel concerns were only starting to be addressed.
At 4 weeks baby I had a gestational age of 31+ 1.
This time period commenced on 4th September.
Just two days after turning 4 weeks, child I was transferred out due to suspected NEC.
I ask you, which Dr in their right mind is going to continue to administer feeds when there is a baby suspected of NEC? Much less transfer them to another hospital? That would be beyond the realms of embarrassment I would have thought.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

It’s going to be very interesting to hear what the defence’s experts have to say when we get to the defence’s turn. I wonder how big of a name in that speciality the defence has managed to secure.

 

[DinerMite]

First post on the forum so just wanted to say hello and hope everyone is keeping well.

I've kept up with the case quite well but haven't really had a place to discuss. One thing that struck me was the exchange between LL and her colleague following Baby I (I think?) where her colleague states the parents aren't happy about a post mortem being done and LL disagrees and states she thinks a PM is for the best to find out what went wrong. Difficult to find the exact quote apologies. However, why would she state a PM is good if it MAY point to foul play and she could be to blame?

The only thing I can think is a senior colleague said they were going to do a PM and LL originally disagreed until the senior colleague told her why a PM was necessary and therefore LL then adopts this mindset with colleagues?

 

[esther43]

For sure. There are many professors of neonatology out there, it would be good to see an expert with a significant portfolio in extremely low birth weight babies. (Particularly relevant in a couple of the cases so far) acting for both sides.

 

[Ruby12345]

It’s going to be very interesting to hear what the defence’s experts have to say when we get to the defence’s turn. I wonder how big of a name in that speciality the defence has managed to secure.

Do we have any idea of when the defence gets to start presenting their case? Do they have equal time each?

It's 4 months since the start but we have lost some weeks due to illness and holidays.

 

[DianaWW]

I don’t think it’s possible for them to have an equal amount of time if the trial is to end in May. We’re not even half way through the prosecution’s evidence yet. I don’t think the defence are going to have anywhere near as much evidence to get through as we’re seeing from the prosecution. We’d be here until Christmas if they did! JMO of course.

 

[Tortoise]

It’s going to be very interesting to hear what the defence’s experts have to say when we get to the defence’s turn. I wonder how big of a name in that speciality the defence has managed to secure.

I don't think they're going to bring any experts. I think their case is being presented solely through cross-examination of the prosecution's experts. JMO