UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #11

[ColourPurple]

Oh, so your memory is better than mine haha
I completely missed it.
Did she really?

When interviewed by police regarding the circumstances over Child A's death, Letby said she had given fluids to Child A at the time of the change of shifts.

She said within "maybe" five minutes, Child A developed 'almost a rash appearance, like a blotchy red marks on the skin'.

She said she had wondered whether the bag of fluid "was not what we thought it was".

In an interview in June 2019, Letby said she had asked for all fluids to be kept from the bag at the end to be checked, but the prosecution said there was was no record of her having made such a request.

It was suggested by police that Letby had administered an air emolus. She replied it would have been very hard to push air through the line.

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

When interviewed by police regarding the circumstances over Child A's death, Letby said she had given fluids to Child A at the time of the change of shifts.

She said within "maybe" five minutes, Child A developed 'almost a rash appearance, like a blotchy red marks on the skin'.

She said she had wondered whether the bag of fluid "was not what we thought it was".

In an interview in June 2019, Letby said she had asked for all fluids to be kept from the bag at the end to be checked, but the prosecution said there was was no record of her having made such a request.

It was suggested by police that Letby had administered an air emolus. She replied it would have been very hard to push air through the line.

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Thanks!
But I trusted you

I sometimes just skim through the reports.
As I wrote earlier Im afraid these horrible details might get stuck in my memory

I would hate it.

 

[ColourPurple]

Thanks!
But I trusted you

Lol I had to go and check for myself if it actually was Baby A

I sometimes just skim through the reports.
As I wrote earlier Im afraid these horrible details might get stuck in my memory

I would hate it.

I know what you mean. I sometimes wish I'd never started following this trial as some of the allegations we've read have been so horrendous I'd rather not have ever known about them. I've had to stop reading and just take a moment, so many times, so god knows what it's like for the babies' families to hear in court.

 

[bbsaz]

Also, on Dr J, the reporting today makes it sound like the air embolus penny dropped in April 2016, but wasn’t he talking about researching air embolism papers way back at the start of the trial for the earlier babies and how he was taken aback by the mottling back then?

I’m sorry, I know this might be a minor point and others might not agree, but I really am blown away that Dr J had previously raised concerns that LL was harming babies, had previously researched air embolism and mottling, had literally walked in on LL allegedly attacking child K, and still felt it not relevant to log Child M’s mottling on the notes. JMO.

June 2015 the consultants notice LL is always there. Assume incompetence?

Baby K is Feb 2016 and DrJ is really suspicious

So April 2016 is when Baby M displays mottling which he doesnt record

June 29th 2016 the consultants meet and one of them suggests air embolism.

That evening Dr J researches, finds a paper that makes spine tingle, sends it to his colleagues and she never works there again

So air embolism only enters the picture end of June 16. Which explains why he didnt see the relevance in April to note it down
Imo

 

[Sweeper2000]

June 2015 the consultants notice LL is always there. Assume incompetence?

Baby K is Feb 2016 and DrJ is really suspicious

So April 2016 is when Baby M displays mottling which he doesnt record

June 29th 2016 the consultants meet and one of them suggests air embolism.

That evening Dr J researches, finds a paper that makes spine tingle, sends it to his colleagues and she never works there again

So air embolism only enters the picture end of June 16. Which explains why he didnt see the relevance in April to note it down
Imo

I’m still a bit caught up that symptoms weren’t noticed sooner. If avoiding AE is everyday practice then how are the symptoms a mystery to the staff?

 

[Dotta]

I’m still a bit caught up that symptoms weren’t noticed sooner. If avoiding AE is everyday practice then how are the symptoms a mystery to the staff?

I think AE is known in theory but it is rare in practice b/c of modern equipment with alarms and staff's carefulness to avoid it.
JMO

 

[marynnu]

When interviewed by police regarding the circumstances over Child A's death, Letby said she had given fluids to Child A at the time of the change of shifts.

She said within "maybe" five minutes, Child A developed 'almost a rash appearance, like a blotchy red marks on the skin'.

She said she had wondered whether the bag of fluid "was not what we thought it was".

In an interview in June 2019, Letby said she had asked for all fluids to be kept from the bag at the end to be checked, but the prosecution said there was was no record of her having made such a request.

It was suggested by police that Letby had administered an air emolus. She replied it would have been very hard to push air through the line.

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Re. the difficulty of pushing air through the line, as we've heard many times nurses prime all lines with fluid to remove air. With wide bore tubes, like the drips most if us have probably seen, gravity is enough. With narrow bore lines you have to push the air out with the syringe. Either way it's evidently easy.
All JMO.

 

[marynnu]

I’m still a bit caught up that symptoms weren’t noticed sooner. If avoiding AE is everyday practice then how are the symptoms a mystery to the staff?

Everyone avoids it religiously, so nobody sees it.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Twin babies, L and M, both collapsed and within 24 hours of each other.

I’ve completely missed this then. I’m aware of Child L’s insulin situation. Was there a situation in which Child L collapsed and/or required resuscitation?

 

[marynnu]

I’ve completely missed this then. I’m aware of Child L’s insulin situation. Was there a situation in which Child L collapsed and/or required resuscitation?

No, as far as I can see Baby L never needed resus.

 

[WaxLyrical]

June 2015 the consultants notice LL is always there. Assume incompetence?

Baby K is Feb 2016 and DrJ is really suspicious

So April 2016 is when Baby M displays mottling which he doesnt record

June 29th 2016 the consultants meet and one of them suggests air embolism.

That evening Dr J researches, finds a paper that makes spine tingle, sends it to his colleagues and she never works there again

So air embolism only enters the picture end of June 16. Which explains why he didnt see the relevance in April to note it down
Imo

Yeah I just don’t buy it personally. I accept that air embolism as a cause/hypothesis only came into the picture in June 2016, but Dr J said there’d been whispers of the weird rash since babies A to D. Dr J was himself so convinced that something untoward was going on that he interrupted an alleged attack on Baby K. He wasn’t some junior or inexperienced doctor.

In my opinion there’s no way he wouldn’t have noted that weird rash on baby M, after his experience with baby K and then seeing another unexplained collapse that involved LL. I feel the same way about Dr J saying he simply overlooked writing a note as I do about LL saying she has no recollection of searching families on FB. Possible but implausible.

It makes no difference to anything either way.

JMO.

 

[LorriB]

Whilst reading about the possibility of AE in infants, I came across this piece of research from 1989 on the occurrence. Possibly the article noted by Dr J (JMO).

If not, it's still an interesting read and explores ways these can occur.

https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/64/4_Spec_No/507.full.pdf

 

[marynnu]

Whilst reading about the possibility of AE in infants, I came across this piece of research from 1989 on the occurrence. Possibly the article noted by Dr J (JMO).

If not, it's still an interesting read and explores ways these can occur.

https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/64/4_Spec_No/507.full.pdf

Just for ventilated babies though I think?

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Whilst reading about the possibility of AE in infants, I came across this piece of research from 1989 on the occurrence. Possibly the article noted by Dr J (JMO).

If not, it's still an interesting read and explores ways these can occur.

https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/64/4_Spec_No/507.full.pdf

This is the article Dr. J found and it was presented to the court. (edit, let me look back for the link, will produce) This article is from 1989 when there was no surfactant and modern lung protective practices were not available. At this time, neonatologists would have to use very high ventilator pressure, which sometimes resulted in air being pushed into circulation from the lungs. That is how the researchers had enough cases to write an article on.

EDIT: Here is the link where Dr. J mentions this article by name "Pulmonary Vascular Embolism in the Newborn." It's not clear to me if the actual article was presented to the jurors or if Dr. J merely summarized it's contents. It's a very interesting article.

Consultant tells trial skin marks ‘didn’t fit with anything he’d seen’

Nurse Lucy Letby denies the murders of seven babies and the attempted murders of 10 others.

www.expressandstar.com

 

[katydid23]

No, as far as I can see Baby L never needed resus.

Yes, haven't seen anything about a resus---but did see this:

"Lucy Letby, 33, allegedly attacked the prematurely born infants during a day shift at the Countess of Chester hospital’s neonatal unit. One of the boys, Child M, “dramatically” collapsed in his incubator in the unit’s intensive care room at 4pm on 9 April 2016, the court heard. His brother, Child L, also deteriorated beside him at “pretty much the same time”, theprosecutor, Nick Johnson KC, said."

I wonder what he meant by deteriorated? I guess lack of oxygen saturation?

Baby L was allegedly the victim of 'attempted murder' so it must have been a serious incident.

 

[esther43]

All very reasonable. As pointed out, however, this note wasn't found until two years later when she was arrested. No one is alleging it was under the bed from the time it arrived at her house, as far as I can tell. There are innumerable ways in which the note could have got into the bad and the bag under the bed.

Yes, well spotted, I reflected on that after writing it. It's still bonkers though that it ended up at her house in the first instance. Not her designated baby and not her handwritten notes. Should have gone in the bin on the unit JMO

 

[katydid23]

I’ve completely missed this then. I’m aware of Child L’s insulin situation. Was there a situation in which Child L collapsed and/or required resuscitation?

Baby L 'deteriorated' at the same time that Baby M suffered a collapse:

"Lucy Letby, 33, allegedly attacked the prematurely born infants during a day shift at the Countess of Chester hospital’s neonatal unit. One of the boys, Child M, “dramatically” collapsed in his incubator in the unit’s intensive care room at 4pm on 9 April 2016, the court heard. His brother, Child L, also deteriorated beside him at “pretty much the same time”, the prosecutor, Nick Johnson KC, said."

Lucy Letby: nurse won Grand National bet on day of attempted baby murders, court told

Letby texted friends about winnings on same day she allegedly tried to kill twin boys in incubator, jury hears

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sweeper2000]

This is the article Dr. J found and it was presented to the court. (edit, let me look back for the link, will produce) This article is from 1989 when there was no surfactant and modern lung protective practices were not available. At this time, neonatologists would have to use very high ventilator pressure, which resulted in air being pushed into circulation from the lungs. That is how the researchers had enough cases to write an article on.

I’m wondering if there is anything about modern medicine that might make an air embolism more survivable? Like resus methods etc ? Looking at that paper it’s a reflection of AE via the ventilator so as you mentioned might involve a much higher volume of air thus increasing the lethality compared to a AE via syringe.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Baby L 'deteriorated' at the same time that Baby M suffered a collapse:

"Lucy Letby, 33, allegedly attacked the prematurely born infants during a day shift at the Countess of Chester hospital’s neonatal unit. One of the boys, Child M, “dramatically” collapsed in his incubator in the unit’s intensive care room at 4pm on 9 April 2016, the court heard. His brother, Child L, also deteriorated beside him at “pretty much the same time”, the prosecutor, Nick Johnson KC, said."

Lucy Letby: nurse won Grand National bet on day of attempted baby murders, court told

Letby texted friends about winnings on same day she allegedly tried to kill twin boys in incubator, jury hears

www.theguardian.com

It’s referring to the insulin poisoning isn’t it? There was no dramatic collapse of Baby L, except the increased dextrose, the poisoning didn’t become clear until some time later.

 

[marynnu]

I

Yes, haven't seen anything about a resus---but did see this:

"Lucy Letby, 33, allegedly attacked the prematurely born infants during a day shift at the Countess of Chester hospital’s neonatal unit. One of the boys, Child M, “dramatically” collapsed in his incubator in the unit’s intensive care room at 4pm on 9 April 2016, the court heard. His brother, Child L, also deteriorated beside him at “pretty much the same time”, theprosecutor, Nick Johnson KC, said."

I wonder what he meant by deteriorated? I guess lack of oxygen saturation?

Baby L was allegedly the victim of 'attempted murder' so it must have been a serious incident.

I think he possibly just meant the low blood sugar problem? It's not a term doctors or nurses would use in this context IMO, but possibly a non-medical person might see it as appropriate.
Overdosing with insulin is a murder method, as we can see with other similar cases.