UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

[sleuth777]

Sky News link:

Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murdering eight babies

Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION* thread

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[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

This is a trial thread to discuss the trial only. It is not a general discussion thread.

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Reference: UK Contempt of Court Act 1981

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’m wondering if baby c notes indicate something other than NG air Was the cause. Im no doctor but with the copious amounts of info on hg air I think we all have at least an idea. It’s baby c showing vital signs after the resus efforts that’s making me wonder. The info I’m thinking of is what magicarp said about how no breathing essentially starves the heart of oxygen so it doesn’t beat anymore. I don’t know if the muscle being starved of oxygen means that were that ng air to shift allowing flow to resume would the muscle start working again Or would the heart be permanently damaged beyond repair at that point?

dr Gibbs said he didn’t understand it from a natural disease POV but does that mean then that what happened is explainable by administered air? If so, why ? If not, why?

does the sequence of events around baby c correspond with what one could expect from ng air?

I really do question how the ng air allegation would cause death when aspiration of the ng tube is routine in resus efforts and presumably is done at the start of the resus efforts.

 

[Tortoise]

I’m wondering if baby c notes indicate something other than NG air Was the cause. Im no doctor but with the copious amounts of info on hg air I think we all have at least an idea. It’s baby c showing vital signs after the resus efforts that’s making me wonder. The info I’m thinking of is what magicarp said about how no breathing essentially starves the heart of oxygen so it doesn’t beat anymore. I don’t know if the muscle being starved of oxygen means that were that ng air to shift allowing flow to resume would the muscle start working again Or would the heart be permanently damaged beyond repair at that point?

dr Gibbs said he didn’t understand it from a natural disease POV but does that mean then that what happened is explainable by administered air? If so, why ? If not, why?

does the sequence of events around baby c correspond with what one could expect from ng air?

I really do question how the ng air allegation would cause death when aspiration of the ng tube is routine in resus efforts and presumably is done at the start of the resus efforts.

Dr Gibbs said that whatever process had caused baby C to stop breathing and his heart to stop, had started to reverse, which is contrary to the expected process of natural disease. Dr Evans said his inflated stomach had splinted the diaphragm, suffocating him. But by that stage, over an hour later, he had suffered catastrophic brain damage from deprivation of oxygen and so palliative care was given.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Ah remember now magicarp saying something about this previously and the splinting.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Forgive the long post, I wrote and rambled as always!

I wonder how LL’s Saturday is going?
She can’t speak to BM while giving evidence so she can’t converse with him for him to be able to advise her on what to say. She can’t just stop testifying, I don’t know where people are getting their information from on that but once you’ve got up there and answered questions from your defence counsel you can’t just say ‘I’m not answering anymore’ when the prosecution start questioning. She will have been warned by BM repeatedly about this, he will have told her how brutal cross examination can be, and how even details she genuinely can’t remember will be scrutinised and put to the jury as lies. She knew all this yet she has to try and claw back some sort of control, because IMO that’s who she is. A person who can’t stand not being in control, and thinks that she can tell little lies and get away with them because in IMO that’s what she’s always done.

Except she wasn’t banking on the incredible skills of NJ KC. The way he has let her lock herself into answers and make assertions, then he swoops in and peels back each layer exposing the lie. IMO (forgive the shrek reference) LL is like an onion. She has built up layers of lies over the years and during her time on the stand. Normally in her every day life she could get away with playing ignorance to the situations she IMO caused. She could send a text to a colleague saying how upsetting it was or play the ‘caring nurse’ give a sweet smile and get away with it. She IMO was a professional gaslighter. And used her appearance which IMO has a lot to do with how she’s got away with this for so long, her colleagues thought ‘not nice lucy’ because on first appearances that’s how she comes across. The picture of her holding the baby grow looking like any other nice nurse is an example of how looks can be deceiving. She portrayed a competent, intelligent, dedicated role. Her texts to doc choc after baby p died about how she can’t ‘imagine how the parents feel, bad enough to lose one baby but to lose 2 is awful’ etc… she uses the word ‘awful’ to describe babies deaths a lot. She also seems to brush off any suggestion of how a babies death was unexpected by suggesting possible causes, ‘overwhelming sepsis’ ‘NEC’ ‘vent dependant, extremely premature’… and expects colleagues to accept her version because of course she was there. Gaslighting her colleagues was easy.. except for Dr B and Dr J who peeled back the very first layer of LL. That’s why IMO she called them ‘b…ds’ in her note. They had the nerve to try and expose her and wouldn’t allow themselves to be gaslit.

Now up against NJ she can’t control what he’s going to ask, with BM she knew he was going to ask her questions that she could answer using the excuses she’d already thought of. With NJ he’s leaving her to stew by getting her to assert her answer then saying ‘we’ll come back to that’, then asks another question while her mind is stewing over ‘what does he mean by we’ll come back to that?’ Trying to think of what is the next lie she’s been caught in. Or having the realisation dawn on her that she’s going to have another layer of lies exposed. It’s a pathological lying gaslighter’s worst nightmare, being exposed for what they are. And NJ is executing this perfectly, we are only on baby D and she knows he knows more than she originally thought. She thought the prosecution had put forward everything they knew, and she’d prepared answers for the questions she thought they’d answer. But it’s dawning on her that NJ knows about the keepsake box, about her going into work after hours, about her falsifying documents (if that’s what he was coming to yesterday), and he has been dying for this opportunity to cross examine her. I bet he was buzzing when she said she wanted to testify, he’d indirectly suggested that she’d falsified documents and that the handover sheets were trophies. But probably couldn’t discuss some evidence unless she testified herself. Once she says ‘this is not true’ the door is then open for him to introduce little snippets of extra information that we wouldn’t have known had she not had such a sense of self importance and belief that she could talk herself out of anything that she took the stand.

Yesterday, when NJ made the comment about her falsifying documents, locked her into another (IMO) lie then said ‘we’ll come back to that’, and then went back and asked about the bereavement checklist. I personally think she had a ‘sudden realisation’, that she’s running out of layers to protect her IMO murderous core, her true self is about to be fully exposed. She’s conscious of how many times she’s said ‘I don’t recall’, or how many times she’s been proven to be lying on the stand by NJ. She’s running out of things to say. I bet she thought she could answer any possible self incriminating questions with ‘I don’t recall’ or ‘no’ and that NJ would just move on to the next. She was relying on having ‘I don’t recall’ as her ‘out’. She could just say that and in her mind ‘they’ve got no evidence on me’ she thought they’d suggest she was lying but have no way of proving it. Unfortunately for LL she has been given a mastermind of a prosecutor. NJ prosecutes and defends, murders, gangland crime, drug related murders, plus much more and… medical negligence manslaughter cases!
If anyone knows how to refute LL’s claims of it all being hospital failings it is NJ.

Yesterday LL realised, that her answers probably aren’t washing with the jury. Possibly wondered whether her parents even were having doubts. You can’t deny that NJ is exposing her piece by piece, layer by layer.
She’s realised that NJ will not be gaslit. She also knew that baby E was next, a case where she’s gaslit baby E’s mother, possibly at times made her doubt what she actually saw and heard. And she’s going to have to accuse baby E’s mum of lying or being mistaken (AKA she’s got to gaslight on the stand) to a jury, everyone watching, her family and any friends she has left, which she may have felt prepared to do. But… she’s got to attempt to gaslight NJ too, and he will not allow that, he will expose yet another layer of LL that she’s kept hidden. She’s being exposed and has gone into complete panic meltdown mode IMO.

She will do anything to avoid having the last layers of herself exposed now IMO, she may even begin a mental evaluation process a’la Leticia Stauch style? I wouldn’t be surprised if this is where the tears will start coming more frequently, when a liar is caught in the act, deny, deflect and cry is their motto. She may even start to admit to small nuggets of truth, letting go of some of the control in the hope she can cling to the last remaining layers of her lies.

This is all MOO and if guilty, of course. I’m not an expert atall, but have experienced my fair share of gaslighting over the years and IMO this is classic.

 

[Dotta]

I can only imagine that barristers in such highly publicized/controversial trial work under enormous burden of stress.

Really,
both Defence and Prosecution attract scrutiny not only from the public, but mainly "law world".
They work literally "under microsope".

I can imagine almost every barrister in the country follows the trial and analyzes each move - and probably comments privately with colleagues.

I cannot even imagine the Judge's sense of responsibility to control all elements of this terrible jigsaw.

This case seems to have enormous impact on all participating.

JMO

 

[Marie Bell]

Sophie Ellis did mention it in her police interview.

"Mr Myers puts it to Miss Ellis that Lucy Letby was not in there at the time of the collapse, and only arrived later [during the resuscitation efforts].
Miss Ellis: "I don't agree with that."
Mr Myers: "You have placed her there when you spoke to the police several years later."
Miss Ellis: "I don't agree with that."


Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, October 28

Nurse Mel Taylor said she likely wasn't asked if LL was there, when she wrote her statement. She has demonstrated a good recall of seeing LL IMO, with detail of how she looked and where she was.


"He then pointed out that in her statement to police she said she was called over by Miss Ellis. There had been no mention of Letby.

'I likely wasn't asked if Lucy Letby was there,' said the nurse. 'Now I have been shown that (statement), I can remember Sophie called me over.

'I said at the time what I thought needed to be said. I can tell you now that Lucy was there. I approached the incubator and she was standing on the opposite side. She was the one that suggested putting in an airway'.

Mr Myers contrasted the account she had given in her police statement with what she was now saying in court. 'You've got Lucy Letby right in the centre of this in what you've told the jury'.

She replied: 'I don't know what to say. I'm just saying what I remember. I gave this statement a few years ago, but I remember how cool and calm she was at the time. I can tell you that Lucy was there'. "


Nurse tells court how she found Lucy Letby standing by incubator

Apologies. Yes Ellis alleged it. Myers indicated doubt about that. The shift leader who wanted LL to leave the bereavement process to Taylor was the one who said that she had seen Taylor and Ellis there at the collapse but didn't have memory of LL being there until the resus attempt was started.

 

[Cluedoneit]

Yes. One witness. The post I'd responded to had said that pretty much everyone had given evidence about this, so I asked for a link to where any other witnesses had said it.

Why would anyone else except a supervisor be around when she’s reprimanding a member of staff? In fact it would be bad practice and demoralising for Letby if her shift leader said it in front of anyone else.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I get a feeling that LL didn’t like SE. I noticed we’ve seen SE mentioned as either being the designated nurse in room 1 when LL wanted to be in there. Or being the designated nurse on the shift before a baby died.

If guilty, I think LL held a lot of resentment towards SE, for being designated babies that she felt she wasn’t qualified or experienced enough to care for. These children then inexplicably collapse/die the minute LL is alone with them, whether it’s the same day or the next shift. Almost asif LL was trying to prove a point that SE shouldn’t be in room 1. Each time a collapse happened it would reinforce LL’s assertion that SE wasn’t qualified enough to care for ITU babies - we know that wasn’t true because senior nurses testified to SE being more than capable of caring for ITU babies.

IMO LL had it out for her, she thought she was much better than her. And then the note ‘I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them’.. suddenly makes sense when you think of it in this context. If LL thought some of her colleagues believed she ‘wasn’t good enough’ to be in room 1, then was she admitting she killed them to prove to others that the ‘less qualified’ nurses shouldn’t be caring for the babies in there.

When she and a colleague are discussing ‘us and the others who’s faces don’t fit’.. do you think LL had a small group of people she ‘liked’ because they designated her babies in room 1, praised her, gave her the recognition she felt she deserved etc.. then there were the others, who in LL’s opinion were under qualified, not experienced enough yet kept getting designated ITU babies. And the ones who decided where nurses would be working. Did she know who was in charge of designating babies each shift? If so was there someone who tended to not put LL where she wanted to go?

All MOO

 

[Marie Bell]

Why would anyone else except a supervisor be around when she’s reprimanding a member of staff? In fact it would be bad practice and demoralising for Letby if her shift leader said it in front of anyone else.

I was replying to a post which stated that everyone had said it; not just one shift leader.

 

[Tortoise]

Apologies. Yes Ellis alleged it. Myers indicated doubt about that. The shift leader who wanted LL to leave the bereavement process to Taylor was the one who said that she had seen Taylor and Ellis there at the collapse but didn't have memory of LL being there until the resus attempt was started.

Myers is just iterating LL's version.

The shift-leader wasn't in room 1 when baby C collapsed. She arrived after, which means LL could have moved at the time she entered. She also said she 100% couldn't say because it was three years later. Mel Taylor said Letby suggested using a Guedel airway device, which could possibly have been fetched from a stock cupboard.


"Ventilation support was provided via a Neopuff device, and Ms Taylor struggled to get any chest movement for Child C.

Ms Taylor said Lucy Letby suggested using a type of ventilation support - a Guedel device - to aid Child C."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, October 28

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

"She recalls "a shout for help", but does not remember who called it."

"The nurse [shift leader] says she was not in room 1 at the time, but saw Sophie Ellis and Melanie Taylor in that room, attempting to assist Child C's breathing with the Neopuff device when she arrived.
The nurse says an initial crash call was put out, followed by one for a consultant."



"Dr Davis's note is presented to the court, written at 1.30am on June 14 and timed retrospectively.
The note said she was arrived at the unit in "less than one minute" after the crash bleep went off.
A 'Guedel airway in situ' was noted, with chest compressions in progress."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, October 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Marie Bell]

Myers is just iterating LL's version.

The shift-leader wasn't in room 1 when baby C collapsed. She arrived after, which means LL could have moved at the time she entered. She also said she 100% couldn't say because it was three years later. Mel Taylor said Letby suggested using a Guedel airway device, which could possibly have been fetched from a stock cupboard.


"Ventilation support was provided via a Neopuff device, and Ms Taylor struggled to get any chest movement for Child C.

Ms Taylor said Lucy Letby suggested using a type of ventilation support - a Guedel device - to aid Child C."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, October 28

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

"She recalls "a shout for help", but does not remember who called it."

"The nurse [shift leader] says she was not in room 1 at the time, but saw Sophie Ellis and Melanie Taylor in that room, attempting to assist Child C's breathing with the Neopuff device when she arrived.
The nurse says an initial crash call was put out, followed by one for a consultant."



"Dr Davis's note is presented to the court, written at 1.30am on June 14 and timed retrospectively.
The note said she was arrived at the unit in "less than one minute" after the crash bleep went off.
A 'Guedel airway in situ' was noted, with chest compressions in progress."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, October 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I'm sure that may be a helpful post to people in general. I'm making of the evidence what I will, as of course you are, and so will the court and jurors. It's good to see other people's 'take' on what they read, isn't it.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm sure that may be a helpful post to people in general. I'm making of the evidence what I will, as of course you are, and so will the court and jurors. It's good to see other people's 'take' on what they read, isn't it.

Did you read somewhere that the shift leader was in the room when baby C first collapsed?

 

[Kemug]

I really sat up and took notice when LL told a completely story to Dr J. They can't both be correct, so the jury will have to decide who they believe. I know which one I believe.

 

[Tortoise]

I really sat up and took notice when LL told a completely story to Dr J. They can't both be correct, so the jury will have to decide who they believe. I know which one I believe.

Yes, it's quite clear it wasn't LL's case that she wasn't there with baby K when Dr J testified. In opening speech defence said it was their case that LL denies dislodging the tube and the baby wasn't sedated.

It's nowhere to be found in the reporting that LL simply wasn't even in the room. The prosecution wouldn't have needed to get a nurse practitioner's statement that it would not be standard practice to wait and see if a 25 week old baby self-corrected before intervening.

This was part of Dr J's cross-examination, where Myers put it to him that his earlier suspicions had crossed his mind when he saw her in the nursery -

"When he agreed that his earlier suspicions about Letby had crossed his mind when seeing her in the nursery, the barrister put it to him: 'You'd got her then!'"
Doctors warned Lucy Letby 'harming babies 8 months before removal'


Denying she was there at this late stage seems incredible to me, if she didn't do as alleged.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

I wonder about Baby E and his Mum - I was waiting for the cross examination on this subject.

Didn't the nurse know about feeding time at 9?

I read somewhere that maybe she chose that exact time to (allegedly) attack the child and then observe Mother's horrified expression while seeing blood in Baby's mouth and hearing "horrendous" scream.

And then told Mum to leave knowing perfectly well how Mother would suffer not knowing what was happening to her child.

Aren't feed times fixed?

And now she is saying Mum's testimony is false!

I hope Prosecution will cover all this thoroughly during cross e.!
I will be waiting.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’d be interested to see what was put to ll in police interview. It could be that she just accepted what was put to her at the time in an effort to be cooperative. Now is the crunch time where she could be drawing a line as she realised what the costs could be. In essence was Lucy letby too agreeable and obligingly accepting at the time of police interview?

I can see someone doing that especially if a bit neurotic. Police are very intimidating, doesn’t like conflict, feels very under the spotlight, not too sure about what happened so just agrees with what the police are saying.

reasonable to expect I think.

 

[JosieJo]

Is LL allowed visitors during the course of her being on the stand?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Is LL allowed visitors during the course of her being on the stand?

Not sure. I think it's been mentioned that she can't canfer with her legal team during her testimony.