UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

[Tortoise]

Apologies, my memory is probably faulty, but since Lucy Letby took the stand, has the court sat more than a 2 day week?

Yes, she sat for 5 days running 15th to 19th May, although on 19th it was adjourned after she requested an early break for lunch.

 

[Charlot123]

If guilty, I don't think it'll be any reason that's comprehensible to most of us - in my opinion there has to be something not right mentally to cause it. We've all observed her thought patterns don't make sense in some ways; weird answers in cross examination when even us lay people can come up with better explanations/excuses, seemingly compulsive hoarding/acquisitions of papers she shouldn't be keeping, the bizzarre self-contradictory notes she's written, a general sense of her appearing to think she's superior to others, etc etc.

I don't know what that all adds up to, but there's something weird about her thought processes, and I think it's likely that, if guilty, her reasons for what she's accused of will make as little sense as the other things already much discussed. If even she knows why she's done them (if guilty) - it may well be that she doesn't know either.

I'm expecting many documentaries with psychologists and criminologists trying to explain her, if she's found guilty, and probably none of them will come up with anything more indepth than we already have here! I hope I'm wrong though, as if she's guilty, I'd really like to know what led up to it, as it seems so inexplicable at present.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we shall find impulsivity that is typical for much younger people (teenagers). Tweens or young teenagers are extremely impulsive and probably shouldn’t be left alone for long. But when such behavior persists into one’s adulthood one can talk about immaturity, I believe?

So I think LL could explain why she did it but won’t be willing to. She clearly didn’t foresee the consequences and in fact, for a while, there was none, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a strong impulsive component each time. Also, the fact that she got support and compassion was reinforcing the behavior.

 

[Tortoise]

At least, I think anyway, the fact that LL has taken the stand might lead to shorter deliberations. I think her evidence will serve as a good in-depth reminder of each baby, and help to really focus in on the detail of the prosecution and defence cases, and the evidence heard. JMO

As well as them being able to assess her credibility as a witness and as a person, and her explanations for each count of course.

 

[Lincoln34]

This is an incredibly interesting point. Possibly explaining a lot about LL. I never thought of what would life around her be? Are there many bars, arcades, shopping malls, places to go to in the neighborhood?

(Ironically, and way many years before it happened, I heard of St. John the Baptist Church of Chester, a true archeological gem in the area. 7th century AD! But, it is not the place where a young person would spend her days.)

Is any Websleuther living nearby? What should a young unmarried woman do to have fun? Indeed, she was too invested in that hospital.

I'm living in Chester and there is tons to do. Bars - too many of them some say - restaurants - lots of options, Storyhouse - theatre, films etc, Chester Marketplace -newly built indoor facility with food stalls and lots of seating. Also the River Dee , Grosvenor Park with outdoor theatre etc and the water meadows for walks etc.

There are also the Races at the oldest racecourse in the country - set up in Henry VIII's time by a Mr. Gee Gee - hence the term for horses some use - but locals tend to stay out of the centre on race days as it's very .... well very!

 

[Kemug]

Actually I'm surprised that we have made it this far with all the jurors, especially given the awful and sad nature of the case.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Wow, another day of no court. I’m wondering if they are having issues with the one juror being absent each time… it’s just not good enough to keep allowing this IMO. Judge needs to do something. 2 day weeks and then on the days they should be sitting there’s been multiple problems resulting in days off.

Poor parents, other jurors, barristers, it affects everyone. I hope this doesn’t end up in a mistrial, it would be devestating! IMO judge needs to consider continuing with just 11 jurors from tomorrow if there is another absence, it’s so wrong to allow everyone to travel to court just to send them back again.

MOO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Wow, another day of no court. I’m wondering if they are having issues with the one juror being absent each time… it’s just not good enough to keep allowing this IMO. Judge needs to do something. 2 day weeks and then on the days they should be sitting there’s been multiple problems resulting in days off.

Poor parents, other jurors, barristers, it affects everyone. I hope this doesn’t end up in a mistrial, it would be devestating! IMO judge needs to consider continuing with just 11 jurors from tomorrow if there is another absence, it’s so wrong to allow everyone to travel to court just to send them back again.

MOO

 

[Lincoln34]

I think I would. I think anything over 6 months is just too much of an impact on the lives of the jurors. Personally I'd argue for a panel of 3 judges, but I suspect finding available judges would then become an issue

They wouldn't abandon the trial, they would proceed with 11 jurors. A jury panel can go down to 9.

Even a panel of judges can have adverse personal life circumstances/ill health.

Yes minimum 9 - Juries Act 1974 S.16 (1) -

16Continuation of criminal trial on death or discharge of juror.​

(1)Where in the course of a trial of any person for an offence on indictment any member of the jury dies or is discharged by the court whether as being through illness incapable of continuing to act or for any other reason, but the number of its members is not reduced below nine, the jury shall nevertheless (subject to [F53subsection (3)] below) be considered as remaining for all the purposes of that trial properly constituted, and the trial shall proceed and a verdict may be given accordingly.

 

[Lincoln34]

I think I would. I think anything over 6 months is just too much of an impact on the lives of the jurors. Personally I'd argue for a panel of 3 judges, but I suspect finding available judges would then become an issue

They wouldn't abandon the trial, they would proceed with 11 jurors. A jury panel can go down to 9.

Even a panel of judges can have adverse personal life circumstances/ill health.

Yes minimum 9 - Juries Act 1974 S.16 (1) -

16Continuation of criminal trial on death or discharge of juror.​

(1)Where in the course of a trial of any person for an offence on indictment any member of the jury dies or is discharged by the court whether as being through illness incapable of continuing to act or for any other reason, but the number of its members is not reduced below nine, the jury shall nevertheless (subject to [F53subsection (3)] below) be considered as remaining for all the purposes of that trial properly constituted, and the trial shall proceed and a verdict may be given accordingly.

 

[Dotta]

IMO the Judge should just put his foot down

For this trial to continue efficiently.

"And now
the end is near,
and so we face the final curtain"

Who sang this?

JMO

 

[Cluedoneit]

IMO the Judge should just put his foot down

For this trial to continue efficiently.

"And now
the end is near,
and so we face the final curtain"

Who sang this?

JMO

ol’ Blue eyes himself AKA Frank Sinatra, or me when I’m very drunk on New Years Eve !

 

[Sausage777]

Obviously I don't know for sure, but I'd be very surprised if anybody else did this regularly, if at all. Some staff might have stayed late (more fool them) but they'd have better things to do IMO! Though LL did live on site for a long time and had no commitments, so in fairness it was easier for her.
I would just add that on our unit staff did pop in now & then to access things, maybe to do with courses or training for example, though never at night. It could be a bit tricky avoiding getting roped in to babysit briefly or check a drug if things were desperately busy. Food

As a ward manager, I'd be having words with any nurse constantly staying late or coming in when not on shift to write notes. I'm in mental health, a world of difference, if someone missed a note, next shift would leave a gap for them, fill it in once back on shift.
Re, overtime, work as much as you like. The working time directive used to stop nurses working excessively, but as government wrecked nursing numbers, you've a choice between begging your staff to work, agency or working short.

 

[Parker Knoll]

This will be a nightmare for the listing office, trials over run all the time but we are way past a usual over run even for a 6 month plus trial.
We also have a High Court Judge “ stuck “ and I use this term in the most respectful way in this trial. He will have had scheduled trials which will have either gone off or relisted due to the Letby case there are only so many available to hear these trials at any one given time.
I’m very close to a Chester as well …. It’s gorgeous !

 

[Marantz4250b]

I've lost track a bit of the projected end date of this? It, surely, must now be expected to suck up most of June and potentially a dignificant portion of July as well by this point?

 

[DianaWW]

I've lost track a bit of the projected end date of this? It, surely, must now be expected to suck up most of June and potentially a dignificant portion of July as well by this point?

I think the last we heard, the judge was estimating the end of July at the longest, including deliberations. But think we’ve had a couple more delays/early finishes since then!

 

[Charlot123]

Wow, another day of no court. I’m wondering if they are having issues with the one juror being absent each time… it’s just not good enough to keep allowing this IMO. Judge needs to do something. 2 day weeks and then on the days they should be sitting there’s been multiple problems resulting in days off.

Poor parents, other jurors, barristers, it affects everyone. I hope this doesn’t end up in a mistrial, it would be devestating! IMO judge needs to consider continuing with just 11 jurors from tomorrow if there is another absence, it’s so wrong to allow everyone to travel to court just to send them back again.

MOO

I wish the juror good luck and to be in good health. Things happen, and this trial must have been very hard on everyone.

 

[Dotta]

I’m very close to a Chester as well …. It’s gorgeous !

One day I will visit Chester Cathedral.

Oh,
and since it is in Cheshire I hope to glimpse a grinning cat!

 

[Parker Knoll]

I will take you for lunch Dotta !

 

[esther43]

I used to have average memory, but if you ask me what happened during the year that we were all staying at home due to COVID scare, I’d be barely able to. But I can still remember some events. Other people staying at home with me will remember different events and days.

If one day doesn’t differ from another one, there is nothing for the memory to stick to.

So if that was the night without collapses or any major events, first, what three people remember might be different because for one something might be meaningful and for another person, not, and second, three people might remember very different things.

But this is why I find it sinister that she didn't remember the dads collapse to the floor in grief. I'd have thought that would have been meaningful.
It seemed to be a 'stand out event' at the time because she was texting a friend all about it. But now, she either doesn't remember it, or doesn't want to remember it.
Conversely, with the light being cast in the room, how can she remember how close the incubator was to the window? Why would she retain that information? At the time she had no idea that this would suspicion would fall on her, it wasn't even a baby assigned to her and she was merely walking by .. so why retain this?

"The bottleneck theory suggests that individuals have a limited amount of attentional resources that they can use at one time. Therefore, information and stimuli are 'filtered' somehow so that only the most salient and important information is perceived."

 

[JerseyGirl]

New thread:

UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

ADMIN NOTE: This is a trial thread to discuss the trial only. It is not a general discussion thread. Although WS is based in the USA, we do try to manage the various discussions according to laws of other countries. As this trial is in the UK, the case is under sub judice so please stick to...

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