UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

[Tortoise]

It is outrageous!! Aside from messed up vacation plans, how are jurors expected to remember what was said in court and by whom, 7 months ago?

They are being reminded of all the salient facts as they go through each baby's case on direct and cross-examination with LL, and there will be closing arguments drawing it all together, and a summing up of the entire case by the judge.

 

[esther43]

The private medicine exists in the UK. Do you know who I heard about private medicine from for the first time? I watched videos made by Dr. Jay... i wanted to know more about the main witness. It exists and is growing, as I found out. But, my point is different. I honestly believe that if there is no one to cover the shift and it is LL's overtime, she has the right to either refuse working, or request higher pay. Or, she should have picked extra shifts in hospitals around. I do see being overwhelmed and underslept as the factor here, although it is not by far the main one. I try to look at the organization issues, because identifying one rotten apple doesn't change the environment where things could happen unnoticed for a while. And to me, the biggest problem appears to be, changing from level 3 to level 2+3 without being fully prepared. JMO.

Hi. Re financial motive, I think it could be applicable in some neonatal units, what you are saying about agency staff and the NHS having to depend on these. It does actually happen in some badly run trusts but the coc did not appear have agency staff, they had a stable work force it seems.
Regarding the level 2 and level 3 stuff, do you mean when they transfer from a level 2 to a level 3 for higher care? As in transferring to Liverpool woman's?

 

[marynnu]

Hi. Re financial motive, I think it could be applicable in some neonatal units, what you are saying about agency staff and the NHS having to depend on these. It does actually happen in some badly run trusts but the coc did not appear have agency staff, they had a stable work force it seems.
Regarding the level 2 and level 3 stuff, do you mean when they transfer from a level 2 to a level 3 for higher care? As in transferring to Liverpool woman's?

Neonatal don't use agency staff really, as you need people who know what they're doing and are familiar with the unit. Most hospitals have a nurse bank and NNUs only employ very specific nurses, often their own staff or ex-staff who have left/retired.

 

[Charlot123]

I don't think it was a normal practice for the other nurses. It was 'normal' for LL apparently.

But I don't put it down to being understaffed and overly busy because she had plenty of time to send multiple texts about other topics to friends and coworkers.

I think it is partly because she was uber focused upon her job, to the detriment of other facets of life. She lived alone in a big house, a mile from her job and she worked extra shifts because she didn't have other responsibilities at the time.

And the handovers in her home lead me to believe she had an unhealthy over-connection to her job, which may by the reason she came in early, stayed late and came in on days off to visit and catch up on notes.

This is an incredibly interesting point. Possibly explaining a lot about LL. I never thought of what would life around her be? Are there many bars, arcades, shopping malls, places to go to in the neighborhood?

(Ironically, and way many years before it happened, I heard of St. John the Baptist Church of Chester, a true archeological gem in the area. 7th century AD! But, it is not the place where a young person would spend her days.)

Is any Websleuther living nearby? What should a young unmarried woman do to have fun? Indeed, she was too invested in that hospital.

 

[Marantz4250b]

This is an incredibly interesting point. Possibly explaining a lot about LL. I never thought of what would life around her be? Are there many bars, arcades, shopping malls, places to go to in the neighborhood?

(Ironically, and way many years before it happened, I heard of St. John the Baptist Church of Chester, a true archeological gem in the area. 7th century AD! But, it is not the place where a young person would spend her days.)

Is any Websleuther living nearby? What should a young unmarried woman do to have fun? Indeed, she was too invested in that hospital.

She seemed to have no trouble finding things to do outside work and clearly had a busy social life. Plenty of pics of her in bars and suchlike and I think lots more will come out if she's convicted. The press will have absolutely rinsed her FB when they had the opportunity.

The thing I just can't get my head round is - if she's guilty - then why? She was young, successful for her age, had a nice house, a stable job, plenty of friends and even potentially a doctor checking her out so why the need to do all the stuff she's accused of? She's far from some unattractive loner who keeps herself to herself.

 

[Kasmeer]

She seemed to have no trouble finding things to do outside work and clearly had a busy social life. Plenty of pics of her in bars and suchlike and I think lots more will come out if she's convicted. The press will have absolutely rinsed her FB when they had the opportunity.

The thing I just can't get my head round is - if she's guilty - then why? She was young, successful for her age, had a nice house, a stable job, plenty of friends and even potentially a doctor checking her out so why the need to do all the stuff she's accused of? She's far from some unattractive loner who keeps herself to herself.

If guilty, I don't think it'll be any reason that's comprehensible to most of us - in my opinion there has to be something not right mentally to cause it. We've all observed her thought patterns don't make sense in some ways; weird answers in cross examination when even us lay people can come up with better explanations/excuses, seemingly compulsive hoarding/acquisitions of papers she shouldn't be keeping, the bizzarre self-contradictory notes she's written, a general sense of her appearing to think she's superior to others, etc etc.

I don't know what that all adds up to, but there's something weird about her thought processes, and I think it's likely that, if guilty, her reasons for what she's accused of will make as little sense as the other things already much discussed. If even she knows why she's done them (if guilty) - it may well be that she doesn't know either.

I'm expecting many documentaries with psychologists and criminologists trying to explain her, if she's found guilty, and probably none of them will come up with anything more indepth than we already have here! I hope I'm wrong though, as if she's guilty, I'd really like to know what led up to it, as it seems so inexplicable at present.

 

[Kemug]

That's not my point! My point is that a jury, originally asked to commit to a six-month trial, were being told, 7 months in and rising, on the 18th May, that they effectively would need to continue to cancel their lives and commit to another two months. That's 9 whole months!

Come on, it's an outrageous ask of them. And as much as it's deeply frustrating from our perspective, I'm 100% on their side.

Would you therefore advocate judge-only trials for big cases? Are there any places in the world where that happens?

 

[katydid23]

She seemed to have no trouble finding things to do outside work and clearly had a busy social life. Plenty of pics of her in bars and suchlike and I think lots more will come out if she's convicted. The press will have absolutely rinsed her FB when they had the opportunity.

The thing I just can't get my head round is - if she's guilty - then why? She was young, successful for her age, had a nice house, a stable job, plenty of friends and even potentially a doctor checking her out so why the need to do all the stuff she's accused of? She's far from some unattractive loner who keeps herself to herself.

There are psychological disorders that can compel people to commit such acts. If we look at other nurses/caregivers who have done the same crimes we can see what was found to be behind their actions. And doing so answered a lot of questions for me.

 

[Legal]

Would you therefore advocate judge-only trials for big cases? Are there any places in the world where that happens?

This happened in the Oscar Pistorius case in South Africa, where there was no jury but only one judge. She originally found him not guilty of murder but guilty of culpable homicide and gave him 5 years. IMO and many others this was a joke considering all the evidence and his attempt to use 3 different defences and this was overturned on appeal. He was found guilty of murder but the same judge gave him 6 years. This was again appealed and he finally got 15 years.

AfaIk there has been no explanation given for her leniency. However, South Africa is a country with a complex history, and the facts are that the judge was a black woman, while the defendant was a very wealthy, famous white man.

 

[Anxala]

Would you therefore advocate judge-only trials for big cases? Are there any places in the world where that happens?

Oh not at all, all I'm really saying is how this trial (with its ever-changing end date) highlights how difficult in general long-term trials must be for the courts to manage/stay on schedule.

 

[ShireChe]

Oh not at all, all I'm really saying is how this trial (with its ever-changing end date) highlights how difficult in general long-term trials must be for the courts to manage/stay on schedule.

I think I would. I think anything over 6 months is just too much of an impact on the lives of the jurors. Personally I'd argue for a panel of 3 judges, but I suspect finding available judges would then become an issue

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
15m

Lucy Letby is due back in the witness box at Manchester Crown Court this morning, today will be the sixth day of cross examination. The former nurse is accused of murdering 7 babies and attempting to murder a further 10 between 2015 and 2016 at the Countess of Chester Hospital

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
1m

Court will not sit today due to a juror absence

 

[Marantz4250b]

I'm beginning to think that this trial is never going to end!

 

[Tortoise]

10:39am

Eleven of the 12 members of the jury come into court.
The judge tells them the trial cannot proceed unless all 12 of them are present, and one is not present for "particular personal reasons".
"There is obvious uncertainty in relation to your colleague's position", he adds.
The jury are urged to turn up tomorrow unless they hear otherwise.
The judge tells the jury: "We have had a lot of breaks, and there comes a time where we cannot keep having more and more breaks, as it becomes inappropriate.
"Events do occur which are unexpected, and we have had a few during this case."
The court is told that a view will be taken tomorrow on the 12th juror.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 30 - trial adjourned again

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, was…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

I'm beginning to think that this trial is never going to end!

I think they were only going to sit on Tues and Wednesday. If a juror is sick today, good chance tomorrow as well. So then no court for another week?

ETA:: Tortoise shed more light upon the issue upthread...

 

[Anxala]

I think I would. I think anything over 6 months is just too much of an impact on the lives of the jurors. Personally I'd argue for a panel of 3 judges, but I suspect finding available judges would then become an issue

Agree, it's too big an ask and it's riddled with entirely predictable (human-related) setbacks, as we're seeing here.

 

[JosieJo]

10:39am

Eleven of the 12 members of the jury come into court.
The judge tells them the trial cannot proceed unless all 12 of them are present, and one is not present for "particular personal reasons".
"There is obvious uncertainty in relation to your colleague's position", he adds.
The jury are urged to turn up tomorrow unless they hear otherwise.
The judge tells the jury: "We have had a lot of breaks, and there comes a time where we cannot keep having more and more breaks, as it becomes inappropriate.
"Events do occur which are unexpected, and we have had a few during this case."
The court is told that a view will be taken tomorrow on the 12th juror.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 30 - trial adjourned again

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, was…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I still can't shake off the feeling that many of the jurors absences could be the same person..I'm not saying all.
And many seem to be immediately following breaks or special events

 

[Legal]

I totally agree, even for anything over 3 months. I think complex fraud cases have a panel of judges rather than a jury, but I may be mistaken.

I wonder what options the judge is thinking of? Allowing fewer jurors? I hope to god he doesn't abandon the trial after 7 months. The nightmare for all the parents, not to mention the costs incurred to the taxpayer. The defence barristers will be on an hourly rate.

 

[Legal]

I still can't shake off the feeling that many of the jurors absences could be the same person..I'm not saying all.
And many seem to be immediately following breaks or special events

Interesting! Maybe the judge will decided to proceed without this particular juror if that's the case. If I was one of the 11 jurors who turned up today I would be really pissed off.