UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Tortoise]

schedule - I haven't revisited this for a little while so there may be some info missing that we now know, like room no.


8 Jun 2015 - Twin Baby A - murder charge - boy - night – room 1 - designated nurse
9 Jun 2015 – 9.58am - FACEBOOK mother of A&B
10 Jun 2015 - Twin Baby B - attempted murder charge – girl - night – room 1 – Anon 5 mentor designated nurse – LL room 3
10 Jun 2015 – 11.31pm - FACEBOOK mother of A&B
14 Jun 2015 - Baby C - murder charge – boy - night – room 1 – Sophie Ellis designated nurse – LL room 3
14 Jun 2015 – 3.32pm - FACEBOOK parents Baby C
22 Jun 2015 - Baby D - murder charge - girl- night – room 1 – Caroline Oakley designated nurse – LL room 1
25 Jun 2015 – 9.50pm – FACEBOOK mum of A&B
25 Jun 2015 – 9.51pm – FACEBOOK mum of Baby D

abt 8 Jul 2015 – Baby B went home.

4 Aug 2015 - Twin Baby E - murder charge - boy - night – room 1 - designated nurse
5 Aug 2015 - Twin Baby F - attempted murder charge - boy - night – room 2 – Anon 5 mentor designated nurse – LL room 2
6 Aug 2015 – 7.58pm - FACEBOOK mother of E&F
10 Aug 2015 – F went home.
23 Aug 2015 – FACEBOOK mother of E&F

2 Sep 2015 – FACEBOOK mum of A&B
3 Sep 2015 – LL’s first night shift since 5th Aug
7 Sep 2015 - Baby G - attempted murder charge – girl - night – room 2 - not designated nurse – LL room 1
9 Sep 2015 – FACEBOOK – parents of A&B
14 Sep 2015 – FACEBOOK mother E&F
19 Sep 2015 – LL asks her colleague how A&B’s parents are. She doesn’t search them again after this.
21 Sep 2015 - Baby G - 2 x attempted murder charges - day - designated nurse
21 Sep 2015 – FACEBOOK parents Baby G
21 Sep 2015 – minutes later FACEBOOK mother of E&F
21 Sep 2015 – minutes later FACEBOOK another mother
26 Sep 2015 - Baby H - attempted murder charge - girl - night – room 1 - designated nurse
27 Sep 2015 - Baby H - attempted murder charge - night – room 1 – Shelley Tomlins designated nurse – LL room 2
30 Sep 2015 - Baby I - alleged attempted murder (chgd w/murder) - girl - day – room 3 - designated nurse

3 Oct 2015 – FACEBOOK father of Baby D
5 Oct 2015 – abt 1.16am – FACEBOOK mother of Baby I
5 Oct 2015 – abt 1.17am – FACEBOOK father of E&F
5 Oct 2015 – 1.18am - FACEBOOK mother of H
13 Oct 2015 - Baby I - alleged attempt murder(chgd w/murder)- night – rm 2 – Ashleigh Hudson designated nurse – LL rm 1
14 Oct 2015 - Baby I - alleged attempted murder (chgd w/murder) - (next) night – room? - designated nurse
23 Oct 2015 - Baby I - murder charge - night – room 1 – Ashleigh Hudson designated nurse – LL room 3

5 Nov 2015 – 11.41pm - FACEBOOK – mother E&F
5 Nov 2015 – 11.44pm – FACEBOOK – mother of G
5 Nov 2015 – 11.44pm – FACEBOOK – mother of I
27 Nov 2015 - Baby J - attempt murder – girl – moved rm 4 to rm 2 - night – Nicola Dennison designated nurse – LL rm 3
Nov 2015 – FACEBOOK – parents Baby J

7 Dec 2015 – FACEBOOK – mother of E&F
25 Dec 2015 – 11.26pm - FACEBOOK – mother of E&F

Jan 2016 – FACEBOOK – mother of E&F
10 Jan 2016 – (last time) FACEBOOK – mother of E&F

17 Feb 2016 - Baby K - attempted murder charge - girl - night – room 1 – Joanne Williams designated nurse – LL room ?

9 Apr 2016 - Twin Baby L - attempted murder charge – boy - day – room 1 – Mary Griffith designated nurse – LL room 1
9 Apr 2016 - Twin Baby M - attempted murder chg – boy - (same) day – room 1 – Mary Griffith designated nurse – LL rm 1

29 May 2016 – 11pm – FACEBOOK – mother of I

3 Jun 2016 - Baby N - attempted murder charge – boy - night – room ? – Christopher Booth designated nurse – LL room 4
15 Jun 2016 - Baby N - 2 x attempted murder charges - day – room 3 - designated nurse
23 Jun 2016 - Triplet Baby O - murder charge - boy - day – room 2 - designated nurse - also supervising a student nurse
24 Jun 2016 - Triplet Baby P - murder charge – boy - day – room 2 - designated nurse
25 Jun 2016 - Baby Q - attempted murder charge - boy - day – room 2- designated nurse

Jul 2016 – LL removed from clinical setting

23 Jun 2017 – anniversary of Baby O’s death – FACEBOOK – Surname of Baby O

Apr 2018 – FACEBOOK – parents of Baby K

Other unreported dates – FACEBOOK – parents Baby G

3 Jul 2018 – LL’s first arrest

 

[nyvictoria]

I think it's pretty obvious what she was trying to convey, when she told the jury, through her tears, that she was 'arrested in her pyjamas.' Everyone jumps to conclusion she was taken away in a flimsy cotton nightgown or PJ s.

If it is as you say, why wouldn't she agree to play the video, and just say I never said I was led away in my PJ's---just arrested in them.

I think she knew that it would be seen as a lie because her PTSD narrative about the arrest in her pyjamas was meant to sound like humiliating and over the top behaviour by the police. Learning that they allowed her to change clothes and put on her trainers changes that narrative somewhat.

All of her lies are similar to this. She just uses certain words/phrases to set a tone, set a scene, that exaggerates things or alters things in her favour. Little lies sprinkled in here and there---ones she can talk her way out of when confronted.

IF guilty and JMO…

I agree. She’s intelligent and she knows how to color a scene to suit her purpose. She’s very well aware that she wasn’t taken out of the house in whatever nightwear she slept in. IMO she said this to support her claim of PTSD and to gain sympathy from the jury.

IMO she strikes me as someone who can get so caught up in arguments about minutia that she loses sight of the big picture. Mischaracterizations like the nightie vs a tracksuit will have a cumulative effect on the jury. When the they’re trying to decide whether to believe a parent’s version of an incident or LL’s version, they may be reminded of LL being less then honest about a fairly trivial (in the grand scheme of things) matter. It certainly doesn’t help her case.

 

[Jayney404]

Do you mean from "the dock"?

Yes

 

[CS2C]

I’m not sure if the meetings with Dr Choc were listed in the live reporting but I just realised I wrote them down.

7th may

26th may

2nd June

8th June London

28th September London (didn’t attend)

 

[Dotta]

If she is found guilty...

I really wonder what repercussions this case will cause for NHS hospitals, especially wards with the most vulnerable patients?

Because it will be "earth shattering" - I have no doubt about it.

JMO

 

[Jayney404]

That puts my theory to bed then! It’s strange how she didn’t search up the final 6 babies parents yet did all the others. I suppose she’d have known their names from being on the NNU and as she was searching for majority of them shortly after the attacks she’d still remember.

Very strange though that she didn’t have a handover note for baby K yet searched up the parents of baby K in April 2018! If she managed to remember the parents names for over 2 years to search them up in 2018, then how come she repeatedly said she ‘could not recall’ almost any of the events for child K’s collapse in her police interview or on the stand last week when being cross examined by NJ? IMO it was because Dr J caught her with baby K and that IMO is why she was searching the parents in April 2018 to see if they had posted anything about the collapse of their baby at COCH.

Baby E and baby K were the 2 times she was ‘caught’ if guilty. IMO that is why she searched baby E’s mother so frequently and then randomly after 2 years searched for baby K’s parents. Personally I think she was checking to see what, if anything, the parents had posted about baby K’s collapse and ultimate death.
MOO

ETA - could LL have had access to hospital records on the computer system in her ‘patient safety’ position after she was redeployed? Could she have searched for the name of baby K’s parents whilst she was in that role? If she knew their name from memory then her claiming to not remember so many events seems even more like a complete lie. IMO

If they were the final 6 there were perhaps already overt concerns around her. At this point it could have been too risky to try and take the paperwork.

By the time multiple deaths and collapses had occurred proper reviews would have been conducted into each one and all paperwork would have been scrutinised. Missing paperwork would have indicated foul play.

JMO if guilty.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If she is found guilty...

I really wonder what repercussions this case will cause for NHS hospitals, especially wards with the most vulnerable patients?

Because it will be "earth shattering" - I have no doubt about it.

JMO

I think the people it will affect the most is NHS staff themselves, especially nurses. Who are already on an all time low in morale and burnt out since the pandemic.

As for patients, most people I know no longer hold the NHS in any regard and are terrified to need to use it. I think for expectant parents, they'll be keen to look for other options after this case and if she's found guilty all the 'Angel of Death' headlines there'll be. Parents will probably rather to look at alternatives to the NHS for the birth of their child IMO which is no way affordable if your baby is premature or born with health problems.

 

[Cardgame]

Maybe the police bodycam footage shows her dad answering the door. [Why else does she mention he was also there at the time?] The police come in. LL is sitting at the breakfast table wearing her tracksuit having coffee and looking at Facebook on her phone.

They tell her politely she is under arrest and she starts effing and blinding and kicking off.

Maybe she swung a couple of punches

Maybe this video has been not allowed into evidence so far for some legal reasons and prosecution has been desperate for a chance to show this video and LL realised there are worse things for her than the jury finding out at she lied about the pyjamas...

Just a bit of wild speculation. All MOO.

If guilty, we might find out one day.

 

[esther43]

I’m not sure if the meetings with Dr Choc were listed in the live reporting but I just realised I wrote them down.

7th may

26th may

2nd June

8th June London

28th September London (didn’t attend)

I find the search of baby K quite a curious one. Baby K is on the Coc unit less than 12 hours and LL is not her designated nurse. Yet LL is searching for her (for the first time) after her being seconded to the Patient Safety office but before being arrested.
It makes no sense that this baby should stand out to her at this time, she had no idea what babies were involved.
So really child K must stand out in her head for a reason.
I wonder just how much info choc gave and under what circumstances.

 

[SusanDonim]

There are manipulation tactics which don’t require any smarts, they just rely on baffling people so much that they lose the ability to engage rationally - e.g. when under pressure come up with a ridiculous, irrelevant and distracting idea to throw everyone off (sewage in the sinks, doctor not washing hands), gaslight people into thinking you’re smart and great by repeatedly saying you are, etc. These tend to work with unsuspecting people but the lawyers are doing a great job simply not engaging with her at that level, so she ends up looking stupid. I reckon if they responded in the way a normal person assuming good faith would, she’d have everyone’s head spinning! Totally agree with you though, there are so many times I’ve wondered why she doesn’t just say something bloody NORMAL on the stand! and it’s so hard to reconcile her demeanour up there with her texting and her post-it breakdowns. Ultimately I have to conclude she’s not a very smart cookie, even when it comes to the medical answers she gives - they’re chatgpt-style bloviating with the rights words but no actual content.

I feel this way with the her 'they apportioned blame' quote. Such an odd word to use. Also the 'they have come home with me' regarding her self-aware handover notes and blood gas readings. JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Maybe the police bodycam footage shows her dad answering the door. [Why else does she mention he was also there at the time?] The police come in. LL is sitting at the breakfast table wearing her tracksuit having coffee and looking at Facebook on her phone.

They tell her politely she is under arrest and she starts effing and blinding and kicking off.

Maybe she swung a couple of punches

Maybe this video has been not allowed into evidence so far for some legal reasons and prosecution has been desperate for a chance to show this video and LL realised there are worse things for her than the jury finding out at she lied about the pyjamas...

Just a bit of wild speculation. All MOO.

If guilty, we might find out one day.

Good points she might have totally lost the plot, not necessarily violence or resisting arrest but something else, something quite extreme. It may explain her 'arrest PTSD' diagnosis and could have facilitated her to be medicated. MOO

 

[katydid23]

Good points she might have totally lost the plot, not necessarily violence or resisting arrest but something else, something quite extreme. It may explain her 'arrest PTSD' diagnosis and could have facilitated her to be medicated. MOO

Maybe the PTSD happened because she was so panicked about being caught for her many alleged crimes, that she was not sleeping or eating well and had repeated nightmares about being arrested---then when they finally pulled the trigger on it and arrived at her door---she was beside herself with fear and angst. Having to be cuffed and searched then arrested for child murder in front of your father, and led away in front of your neighbors, in a leisure suit over your nightie was too much.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Hands up who sleeps in a tracksuit in July ?
According to the Met Office the first week of July 2018 was hot.
It’s baffling how she lies through her teeth on the most insignificant details that can so easily be disproved … does her brain think “ oh well I will give it a whirl, nobody will question it “
Madness.
MOO

 

[katydid23]

Here is Meyers, trying to save a sinking ship:
[chester standard]
2:17pm

Mr Myers continues to ask Lucy Letby questions.
He says there is "not a lot further" to go through.
He says there were "many times" when the prosecution gave evidence, or parts of evidence, to Letby and the jury.

In the case of Child P, he says Child P was the 'worse for wear', and the prosecution said this was similar to the previous night with Child O, which he says was inaccurate.

Letby is asked why she agreed with an inaccurate summary of evidence by the proseuction.

LL: "I can't answer that, I don't know."

Mr Myers says the prosecution had asserted Lucy Letby had 'fallen out' with Melanie Taylor. Letby denies this was the case at any point.

Text messages are shown between Melanie Taylor and Lucy Letby. The exchange is on June 9, 2015, following the death of Child A, and how hard it was going in to back into the unit following such an event.

Letby messaged: "I hope you are ok, you were brilliant" and signs off the conversation "Great see you then xx" to which Melanie Taylor replied "Xx". Letby denies she fell out with Melanie Taylor.
===================================================

 

[katydid23]

Here is Meyers, trying to save a sinking ship:
[chester standard]
2:17pm

Mr Myers continues to ask Lucy Letby questions.
He says there is "not a lot further" to go through.
He says there were "many times" when the prosecution gave evidence, or parts of evidence, to Letby and the jury.

In the case of Child P, he says Child P was the 'worse for wear',

definition of 'worse for wear'==:
idiom. : in worse condition after doing or experiencing something.

Applied to people, it means someone may have had a rough time, but they seem to have come through it ok.

If you say that someone is the worse for wear, you mean that they are tired, ill , or in a bad state because they have been very active, been through a difficult experience, or been drinking alcohol.

[Collins COBUILD Advanced Learner’s Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers]

Kind of weird to call a newborn 'worse for wear'

and the prosecution said this was similar to the previous night with Child O, which he says was inaccurate.

Letby is asked why she agreed with an inaccurate summary of evidence by the proseuction.

LL: "I can't answer that, I don't know."

Why is Meyers saying it was inaccurate if his client just said it was accurate an hour earlier?

Mr Myers says the prosecution had asserted Lucy Letby had 'fallen out' with Melanie Taylor. Letby denies this was the case at any point.

Text messages are shown between Melanie Taylor and Lucy Letby. The exchange is on June 9, 2015, following the death of Child A, and how hard it was going in to back into the unit following such an event.

Letby messaged: "I hope you are ok, you were brilliant" and signs off the conversation "Great see you then xx" to which Melanie Taylor replied "Xx". Letby denies she fell out with Melanie Taylor.
===================================================

lmao---Meyers chooses a tepid text from child A, as an example of them not falling out? There is a full year of them working together, through 22 more incidents. Why choose a text from incident one?

 

[katydid23]

Chester Standard:

2:21pm

Letby is asked about the 'social folder' she was handed by the prosecution this morning.
Mr Myers said the photos showed her 'out on the razz with friends'.
Letby had said there were times she enjoyed herself.
Mr Johnson had said: "Yes, you felt like this, because you know you killed and grievously injured these children?"
Letby: "No."
Mr Myers says there was nothing to these events other than going for drinks with friends. Letby agrees.


2:29pm

An example is shown of Letby on holiday in Torquay with her dad in July 2016.

Another example is of Letby having drinks with university friends in July 14, 2016. Letby says they were the girls she had been with when she was studying nursing.

Another example is of a picture of a couple of bottles of Prosecco on July 22, 2016. Letby is asked if she was allowed to drink Prosecco at this time. Letby agrees.

Another photo is on August 16, 2016, on a day out in Port Sunlight with her parents who had come to Chester. Letby messaged one of her nursing colleagues - her "best friend", and one she said she was allowed to speak to, about Port Sunlight being 'perfect for a picnic and a stroll'.

A photo is taken of Letby at her back garden to her Chester home in August 2016.
A Whatsapp message Letby sent in a group of nursing colleagues was: "It's too sad" in reference to Jennifer Jones-Key leaving the unit.

Letby says 'around September time' the instructions for Letby not to contact anyone on the nursing unit other than three colleagues had 'changed'.

A message on September 22, 2016 to one of the three colleagues - 'All ok with E [Eirian]. Feel bit more positive knowing she's definitely behind me...'

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Reactions:5

 

[katydid23]

Chester Standard:

2:21pm

Letby is asked about the 'social folder' she was handed by the prosecution this morning.
Mr Myers said the photos showed her 'out on the razz with friends'.
Letby had said there were times she enjoyed herself.
Mr Johnson had said: "Yes, you felt like this, because you know you killed and grievously injured these children?"

I wonder how these 'jokes' about the murders are landing with the jury now?

Back at the beginning, it was a good strategy. It did seem ridiculous that she could go out and drink and party after sending air through a newborns lines, and watching them suffer.

But now it seems like it did happen that way. So when he says that, as if it is a joke, it might be falling flat?

Letby: "No."
Mr Myers says there was nothing to these events other than going for drinks with friends. Letby agrees.

OK maybe, but it does change the narrative of her being all alone and isolated.

2:29pm

An example is shown of Letby on holiday in Torquay with her dad in July 2016.

Another example is of Letby having drinks with university friends in July 14, 2016. Letby says they were the girls she had been with when she was studying nursing.

Another example is of a picture of a couple of bottles of Prosecco on July 22, 2016. Letby is asked if she was allowed to drink Prosecco at this time. Letby agrees.

Another photo is on August 16, 2016, on a day out in Port Sunlight with her parents who had come to Chester. Letby messaged one of her nursing colleagues - her "best friend", and one she said she was allowed to speak to, about Port Sunlight being 'perfect for a picnic and a stroll'.

A photo is taken of Letby at her back garden to her Chester home in August 2016.
A Whatsapp message Letby sent in a group of nursing colleagues was: "It's too sad" in reference to Jennifer Jones-Key leaving the unit.

WHY is Meyers showing the jury even more pictures of her out having fun when she is supposedly distraught and hopeless?

Letby says 'around September time' the instructions for Letby not to contact anyone on the nursing unit other than three colleagues had 'changed'.

A message on September 22, 2016 to one of the three colleagues - 'All ok with E [Eirian]. Feel bit more positive knowing she's definitely behind me...'

So is Eirian still supportive of nurse Lucy? I guess, if so, she will be a character witness this week?

 

[katydid23]

Chester Standard Live:

2:32pm

Letby is seen smiling in a number of photos.

Mr Myers asks why Letby is smiling in the photos when it was around the time she handwrote notes documenting her problems.

LL: "Because despite what is going on, you have to find some kind of quality of life."

December 31, 2016, Letby writes on Facebook: "❤ I'm not the same person I was when 2016 began; but I am fortunate to have my own home. I've met some incredible people and I have family and friends who have stood by me regardless - Thank you to those who have kept me smiling. Wishing Every Happiness for us all in 2017"

Letby says she had changed as a person and had 'lost confidence'


Is Meyers helping or hurting LL's case? Showing the jury so many more pictures of her out with friends and supportive family, smiling, being optimistic. On top of the ones NJ just showed the jury.

Looking at all these pictures as a backdrop, when this is the time period she was writing all those emotional post-it-notes?

She had given an explanation for those notes that seemed like confessions, but said they were just a result of her being so alone, hopeless and isolated, with no emotional support. Yet Meyers is here disproving that explanation.

So if she did have a strong network of support and wasn't as isolated as she claimed, why the I AM EVIL I DID THIS writings?

 

[katydid23]

So here is how Meyers ended his re-direct of her defense case:

Chester Standard

2:35pm

BM: "As far as you understood, were you at least allowed a social life?"

LL: "Yes."

Another photo is of Letby at the Kuckoo bar in Chester.

A holiday photo is shown of Letby with her father in June 29, 2018 in Torquay.

Letby denies killing or harming babies for any reason the prosecution had suggested.

BM: "How content were you before, in life?"

LL: "I had a very happy life."

 

[Blondiexoxo]

So here is how Meyers ended his re-direct of her defense case:

Chester Standard

2:35pm

BM: "As far as you understood, were you at least allowed a social life?"

LL: "Yes."

Another photo is of Letby at the Kuckoo bar in Chester.

A holiday photo is shown of Letby with her father in June 29, 2018 in Torquay.

Letby denies killing or harming babies for any reason the prosecution had suggested.

BM: "How content were you before, in life?"

LL: "I had a very happy life."

I find it telling how BM asked the question about ‘were you harming babies to get attention in the way the prosecution have said’?

It’s a 2 fold question, if she says no then is she just saying no she wasn’t doing it for attention? I think I remember an update showing her answer was just ‘no’. To me BM worded this question carefully, the whole ‘in the way they have suggested’ doesn’t seem like it needed adding IMO.

Also I’m very confused why BM didn’t ask her if she has ever falsified medical records? That is a big accusation and if true bolsters the prosecution case IMO, I wonder why he didn’t bring it up? Is it because it’s very clear IMO that she did and by asking her about this he would be encouraging her to lie on the stand? Could she have admitted this to BM and that is why she answered some of NJ’s questions about this with ‘that was an error by myself’ or words to that effect?

It’s telling IMO that out of all the contradictions LL made whilst on the stand, BM only questioned her about a few quite irrelevant points. Falling out with MT and her social life etc… IMO it wasn’t the redirect I was expecting, I think he was just desperate to get her off the stand and wanted to avoid asking too many questions incase she contradicted herself yet again. IMO

All MOO