ColourPurple
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And it's a double edged sword, as it could be argued that poor staff to baby ratios could be beneficial to an alleged hospital serial killer
UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #27
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Blondiexoxo
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11:15am
Mr Myers says there are many causes of discolouration to a baby, and there isn't a precise description as there is no photograph of any. He says the descriptions vary between the witnesses. He adds sometimes the descriptions have come months or years afterwards, after people have listened to other people's descriptions, and the dangers of recollection being 'contaminated or influenced are obvious'.
Mr Myers says 'unexpected collapses' can happen to neonatal babies. He says Child D had pneumonia and was at risk of collapse.
He says for 'resuscitations unsuccessful', the proportion of babies who recovered in this case "doesn't make sense".
He says the air is 78% nitrogen and "doesn't just go". He says it is "static, it is a blockage", and would be found post-mortem. He says the jury won't find air in the heart, post-mortem, in any of the cases.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 27 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…www.chesterstandard.co.uk
Where were BM’s experts to testify to this? BM is bringing up research studies, the physiology of air embolism, calling out prosecution witnesses for not being experts in air embolism. Is BM an expert witness now? Because IMO he is just throwing out all these theories and hoping one will stick with the jury.
I hope NJ gets a rebuttal to this nonsense and if he doesn’t, I hope the judge reminds the jury that they should only consider things that have been admitted in evidence in this case. The opinions of BM and NJ aren’t evidence. They are just opinions and without evidence to back them up they are meaningless IMO.
Why did BM have only a plumber as a witness and then choose to use his closing speech and become his own expert witness? He is telling the jury things he isn’t qualified to talk about IMO, if this continues I sense an objection coming from NJ because this is outrageous, he’s not linking anything back to the evidence.
Where was his witness talking about all the sub optimal care and understaffing? Didn’t LL repeatedly rule out those things as factors for the majority of babies in this case?
notsure
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11:52am
The trial is now resuming following a short break.
11:55am
Mr Myers refers to the case of Child B.
He says Child B's deterioration on June 10 was "relatively brief", and didn't involve her being intubated. He says the defence accept there is no obvious medical condition or obvious evidence of sub-optimal care.
He adds the evidence of an injection of air for Child B's deterioration "is so weak" and "unclear". He says: "If it isn't clear, therefore not guilty."
www.chesterstandard.co.uk
The trial is now resuming following a short break.
11:55am
Mr Myers refers to the case of Child B.
He says Child B's deterioration on June 10 was "relatively brief", and didn't involve her being intubated. He says the defence accept there is no obvious medical condition or obvious evidence of sub-optimal care.
He adds the evidence of an injection of air for Child B's deterioration "is so weak" and "unclear". He says: "If it isn't clear, therefore not guilty."
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 27 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
notsure
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Mr Myers is now turning to count two, the alleged attempted murder of Child A's twin sister Child B
11:53 AM · Jun 27, 2023
He describes the evidence of air embolism in this case as 'so weak that it is no basis for being sure of what is alleged'
11:55 AM · Jun 27, 2023
Becky53
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Blondiexoxo
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Is BM forgetting the judges instructions, was he snoozing for the part where he said that the jury don’t have to be sure that air embolism was the cause? The prosecution don’t have to prove the method just that the harm was done by LL. So BM’s point about witnesses not being experts in air embolism doesn’t really count when the method of death doesn’t have to be proven for the jury to establish guilt IMO.
ColourPurple
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ColourPurple
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12:03pm
Mr Myers says there can be deteriorations for which the cause cannot be identified.
He said there had been a number of attempts to insert a line - five by Dr David Harkness - for Child B, when the guideline was a maximum of three. He says the difficulties of inserting lines can put a baby under stress.
He says Dr Evans, in cross-examination, went through all the potential causes. He says it was suggested Letby had moved the nasal prongs, or that Child B had been "smothered" - Mr Myers says there was no evidence of that, and it was 'abandoned'. He says the conclusion was of air embolus.
A nursing note by a colleague said the prongs had been moved, and "it was not unusual" for the prongs to be moved out by a baby.
On air embolus, Mr Myers says nursery room 1 "is a busy nursery" with staff coming and going.
Belinda Simcock [Williamson] said, to police, there are 4 drugs cupboards and a sterile fridge, with keys held by the shift leader or a band 6 nurse.
"It was constantly busy - I would liken it to a bus station," she said.
12:07pm
Mr Myers says for this allegation, Letby would have to be close to Child B - "and of course, she is not".
He said it was "normal" for her to be assisting a nursing colleague in room 1, in assisting putting up the TPN bag at 12.05am. He says the nursing colleague is "not going to miss that" if air is injected, and it would not take 25 minutes for it to have an effect [when the deterioration takes place].
Mr Myers says at the time of deterioration, Letby was with the nursing colleague and not with Child B. He says the nursing colleague had said she was "keeping a particularly close eye on [Child B]", given the prongs had been dislodged and what had happened to Child A.
12:12pm
Mr Myers says the deterioration was not rapid in this case, and resuscitation was successful.
A radiograph was taken 40 minutes after the deterioration. He says 'no-one is suggesting air' is present. He says that is different from the radiograph image for Child G, which was taken at Arrowe Park, where the air was still there.
He says for discolouration, there was contemporaneous notes at the time. He says the defence are not disputing these discolouration descriptions at the time.
He says none of the descriptions match that from the research paper.
www.chesterstandard.co.uk
Mr Myers says there can be deteriorations for which the cause cannot be identified.
He said there had been a number of attempts to insert a line - five by Dr David Harkness - for Child B, when the guideline was a maximum of three. He says the difficulties of inserting lines can put a baby under stress.
He says Dr Evans, in cross-examination, went through all the potential causes. He says it was suggested Letby had moved the nasal prongs, or that Child B had been "smothered" - Mr Myers says there was no evidence of that, and it was 'abandoned'. He says the conclusion was of air embolus.
A nursing note by a colleague said the prongs had been moved, and "it was not unusual" for the prongs to be moved out by a baby.
On air embolus, Mr Myers says nursery room 1 "is a busy nursery" with staff coming and going.
Belinda Simcock [Williamson] said, to police, there are 4 drugs cupboards and a sterile fridge, with keys held by the shift leader or a band 6 nurse.
"It was constantly busy - I would liken it to a bus station," she said.
12:07pm
Mr Myers says for this allegation, Letby would have to be close to Child B - "and of course, she is not".
He said it was "normal" for her to be assisting a nursing colleague in room 1, in assisting putting up the TPN bag at 12.05am. He says the nursing colleague is "not going to miss that" if air is injected, and it would not take 25 minutes for it to have an effect [when the deterioration takes place].
Mr Myers says at the time of deterioration, Letby was with the nursing colleague and not with Child B. He says the nursing colleague had said she was "keeping a particularly close eye on [Child B]", given the prongs had been dislodged and what had happened to Child A.
12:12pm
Mr Myers says the deterioration was not rapid in this case, and resuscitation was successful.
A radiograph was taken 40 minutes after the deterioration. He says 'no-one is suggesting air' is present. He says that is different from the radiograph image for Child G, which was taken at Arrowe Park, where the air was still there.
He says for discolouration, there was contemporaneous notes at the time. He says the defence are not disputing these discolouration descriptions at the time.
He says none of the descriptions match that from the research paper.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 27 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
ColourPurple
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My Myers said a doctor who had been present for Child A and Child B said what she had seen on Child B was something she had "not seen before", Mr Myers tells the court.
He says it is accepted the skin discolouration is 'striking', but what happened was 'not air embolus'.
He says it is not a particularly nice detail [to point out in comparison to other cases], but there was 'no screaming or distress' for Child B. He says that detail of 'screaming/crying/distress' was 'worked into the theory' by medical experts later in the case.
www.chesterstandard.co.uk
He says it is accepted the skin discolouration is 'striking', but what happened was 'not air embolus'.
He says it is not a particularly nice detail [to point out in comparison to other cases], but there was 'no screaming or distress' for Child B. He says that detail of 'screaming/crying/distress' was 'worked into the theory' by medical experts later in the case.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 27 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
ColourPurple
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12:23pm
Mr Myers refers to a text message sent by Letby on June 12: '...They are querying a clotting problem [for Child B].' He says the prosecution said Letby was 'introducing cover' for events that had she had caused, "seizing on comments".
Mr Myers refers to a text message conversation on June 10, in which the colleague reported: '[Child A's] prelim report - no gross abnormalities. So now bleeds, clots or line issues.'
He says this is something Letby is talking about after being informed about it by another nurse, and is "unremarkable".
www.chesterstandard.co.uk
Mr Myers refers to a text message sent by Letby on June 12: '...They are querying a clotting problem [for Child B].' He says the prosecution said Letby was 'introducing cover' for events that had she had caused, "seizing on comments".
Mr Myers refers to a text message conversation on June 10, in which the colleague reported: '[Child A's] prelim report - no gross abnormalities. So now bleeds, clots or line issues.'
He says this is something Letby is talking about after being informed about it by another nurse, and is "unremarkable".
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 27 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
ColourPurple
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12:29pm
Mr Myers refers to a note by a female consultant, and suggests Dr Evans 'grabbed at' an explanation of 'pink and active' to describe a rash on Child B. Dr Bohin, cross-examined on it, had said it was "a mistake".
Mr Myers says it was "not an innocent mistake".
www.chesterstandard.co.uk
Mr Myers refers to a note by a female consultant, and suggests Dr Evans 'grabbed at' an explanation of 'pink and active' to describe a rash on Child B. Dr Bohin, cross-examined on it, had said it was "a mistake".
Mr Myers says it was "not an innocent mistake".
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 27 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
ColourPurple
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12:33pm
Mr Myers refers to the case of Child C.
He says Dr Evans identified no cause for the collapse in his report, but identified air embolus in evidence.
He says a number of things are "wrong and unfair" about this case from Letby's perspective.
He says if Child C was 1g lighter, he would have been treated at a different hospital. He was very premature, poorly and had pneumonia when he died, and had black bile aspirates in the final 24 hours of life.
He says the medical experts refused to acknowledge Child C was more poorly than they said he was.
He says Letby is being blamed for something when 'on the evidence she wasn't even in the room when alleged harm was done.'
12:35pm
Mr Myers says there were "failures by the neonatal unit", and he should have gone to a tertiary unit for investigation, and there was no examination by a consultant at an earlier stage, or a sufficiently early response to the black bile aspirates, and there was a "general failure" to document things properly.
He says that was "circumstantial evidence" of sub-optimal care.
www.chesterstandard.co.uk
Mr Myers refers to the case of Child C.
He says Dr Evans identified no cause for the collapse in his report, but identified air embolus in evidence.
He says a number of things are "wrong and unfair" about this case from Letby's perspective.
He says if Child C was 1g lighter, he would have been treated at a different hospital. He was very premature, poorly and had pneumonia when he died, and had black bile aspirates in the final 24 hours of life.
He says the medical experts refused to acknowledge Child C was more poorly than they said he was.
He says Letby is being blamed for something when 'on the evidence she wasn't even in the room when alleged harm was done.'
12:35pm
Mr Myers says there were "failures by the neonatal unit", and he should have gone to a tertiary unit for investigation, and there was no examination by a consultant at an earlier stage, or a sufficiently early response to the black bile aspirates, and there was a "general failure" to document things properly.
He says that was "circumstantial evidence" of sub-optimal care.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 27 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
ColourPurple
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"He [Myers] says the medical experts refused to acknowledge Child C was more poorly than they said he was."
In whose opinion? In other words the medical experts disagreed with Myers' opinion.
So the theme seems to be... Myers makes a claim during cross examination of the medical experts. The medical experts disagree with his claim and explain why. Myers then refers to this in his closing speech as the medical experts "refusing to acknowledge" something that was only ever Myers' opinion in the first place.
In whose opinion? In other words the medical experts disagreed with Myers' opinion.
So the theme seems to be... Myers makes a claim during cross examination of the medical experts. The medical experts disagree with his claim and explain why. Myers then refers to this in his closing speech as the medical experts "refusing to acknowledge" something that was only ever Myers' opinion in the first place.
Tortoise
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It's wrong in that (as I have quoted from testimony) Dr Evans did not originally write in his reports "that the baby was given an air embolism on 12 June which he said caused the collapse on 13 June".
As the court reports state, he said the exact opposite in his reports - saying that there was no link between the air seen in x-ray on June 12, and the June 13 collapse and death.
Dr Evans, Dr Bohin and Prof Arthurs all said in court the air seen on June 12 could have been CPAP or deliberately introduced by the NGT, so there is no basis for singling him out for this. He didn't say it caused the collapse and death and he in fact did not have a written report for the cause of death before he took the witness stand. The latter is the reason for the prosecution saying he could be criticised, as I have quoted and linked.
It is also an incorrect assumption that the prosecution believed the air on 12 June was the act that caused death because of the original charging dates. It is standard practice for the CPS to state charging dates within a range which encompasses the date of death or attempted murder. Baby B is stated as 8-11 June 2015, Baby C was stated as 12-15 June 2015, Baby E was 2-5 August 2015 and Baby I was 21-24 October 2015.
ColourPurple
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12:41pm
Mr Myers says the prosecution case was to minimise the problems for Child C.
In cross-examination, Letby said she could not recall if Child C had prior issues. Mr Myers says Letby was 'manoeuvred' into saying that was the case, and the defence do not accept Child C had no prior issues.
He says one of the notes had been put in the wrong patient's file, which was 'poor record keeping'. "Imagine if it was found Lucy Letby had done that? 'Plausible deniability'."
www.chesterstandard.co.uk
Mr Myers says the prosecution case was to minimise the problems for Child C.
In cross-examination, Letby said she could not recall if Child C had prior issues. Mr Myers says Letby was 'manoeuvred' into saying that was the case, and the defence do not accept Child C had no prior issues.
He says one of the notes had been put in the wrong patient's file, which was 'poor record keeping'. "Imagine if it was found Lucy Letby had done that? 'Plausible deniability'."
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 27 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
ColourPurple
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So the defence don't accept that Baby C had no prior issues, even though LL has. This is bizarre!12:41pm
Mr Myers says the prosecution case was to minimise the problems for Child C.
In cross-examination, Letby said she could not recall if Child C had prior issues. Mr Myers says Letby was 'manoeuvred' into saying that was the case, and the defence do not accept Child C had no prior issues.
He says one of the notes had been put in the wrong patient's file, which was 'poor record keeping'. "Imagine if it was found Lucy Letby had done that? 'Plausible deniability'."
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 27 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
ColourPurple
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12:48pm
The note recorded bile on a blanket and black-stained fluid for Child C.
He says nurse Yvonne Griffiths hasn't signed for a 9am reading on June 12, and something was entered for noon and not signed.
He says bile on a blanket and black fluid is recorded in the nursing note at 6.30pm, but is not noted on the fluid chart.
He says a radiograph was taken at 12.36pm. Dr Evans, Dr Bohin and Dr Andreas Marnerides had all regarded the image as a 'suspicious event' of harm. He says Letby was not on duty. Dr Anne Boothroyd recorded 'marked gaseous distention of the stomach'.
Mr Myers says the jury should take this as "proof" the experts can "get it wrong".
He says if this event happened when Letby was on duty, Letby would be accused of causing it.
www.chesterstandard.co.uk
The note recorded bile on a blanket and black-stained fluid for Child C.
He says nurse Yvonne Griffiths hasn't signed for a 9am reading on June 12, and something was entered for noon and not signed.
He says bile on a blanket and black fluid is recorded in the nursing note at 6.30pm, but is not noted on the fluid chart.
He says a radiograph was taken at 12.36pm. Dr Evans, Dr Bohin and Dr Andreas Marnerides had all regarded the image as a 'suspicious event' of harm. He says Letby was not on duty. Dr Anne Boothroyd recorded 'marked gaseous distention of the stomach'.
Mr Myers says the jury should take this as "proof" the experts can "get it wrong".
He says if this event happened when Letby was on duty, Letby would be accused of causing it.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 27 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
Tortoise
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I wasn't even aware that baby G had an air embolus or an x-ray showing one. I thought all the allegations for baby G were over-feeding with milk and air through the NGT.
SleepyJoe
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Is anyone else worried that BM's assertions about the medical evidence (not corroborated by any expert witness, I might add) are enough for the jury to find reasonable doubt? I am assuming that NJ will get right of reply afterwards? I hope he does and he hits it out of the park, because, as Tortoise so aptly described, currently BM is ripping the puzzle pieces all apart and stomping all over them. So much work, effort and time had gone into putting the puzzle so meticulously together and it is very disheartening to see BM trash it like this (I know it is his job) - I hope the jury will be able to see what is simply personal opinion and rhetoric from BM and what the actual medical experts who have pored over this case for years have deduced. Noone wants to see an innocent person go to jail. But IF LL is guilty, she has destroyed countless lives, the effects of which will be felt for generations in many families, and she deserves to be locked away for the rest of her life - for everyone's benefit, including her own.
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