UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #4

[Music2022]

Could this be defended by the fact there was a lack of more senior clinicians and the ward being understaffed as a whole? (As per the independent review) she may have felt the baby was receiving inadequate care due to a lack of senior nurses, perhaps believing the baby’s assigned nurse was out of her depth etc.

While of course it’s a huge no to be leaving your designated patients, I do feel like logically, if you’re one of the most senior nurses and you’re concerned a high care need baby isn’t getting sufficient treatment putting the baby’s at risk you may try and stretch yourself.

I’d be very very interested to see if during the course of the trial we find any evidence of LL making complaints or raising concerns with more senior members about a lack of senior staff or an inability to maintain a level 2 unit.

That would be a good reason. Did she say that in the police interview? She must’ve been asked.

 

[Charlot123]

I had this same thought. Even if we’re not as important as the jury and the court, it would be helpful and interesting to know what the defence aren’t disagreeable about. From what we’ve seen so far I think one point would be that a baby was intentionally given insulin he shouldn’t have it. LL just disagreed it was her who had been the cause.

And it is possible. Could be her, or the TPN bag could be mistakenly delivered to a wrong unit. In 18 legal counts against the hospital made 2 years later, I paid attention to four things.

- the committee mentioning a much more serious and dedicated CEO. To me, it is a hint that the previous CEO, the one during LL’s time, was not good, sorry.
- that despite a good CEO and things getting much better, the temperature in the refrigerators where medications were kept was not regulated properly (and I immediately think, vaccines! Sera, antibiotics). Also, that some medications expired. Now, there are many that might expire and are still good, but not antibiotics.
- the committee mentioned problem of inter hospital sepsis.
- also, that there were not enough nurses in ER.

Any hospital is not super organized. Any could get strikes against it. But if with a good CEO and much improvement things were still far from ideal in medications area and in staffing, I can imagine someone confusing the bags in the pharmacy; less so on the floor, though.

So, again, without knowing how it is done, it is either LL, who was hanging the bag, or it was a confusion in the pharmacy.

 

[Sillybilly]

Bumping previous Admin Note:

ADMIN NOTE:

Numerous posts have been removed.

There is no MSM or other source to support speculation about any specific mental health issue of the accused. This includes autism, which oddly seems to crop in so many discussions when there is nothing to warrant it.

Sub judice is not the topic of this discussion. It is applicable to all cases in the UK.

 

[Charlot123]

All I see so far is that the accusations of LL appear more behavior-based than fact-based. There are too few hard facts so far. Except for that insulin, but even that can’t be proven that it was LL who added it to the bag.

 

[Music2022]

And it is possible. Could be her, or the TPN bag could be mistakenly delivered to a wrong unit. In 18 legal counts against the hospital made 2 years later, I paid attention to four things.

- the committee mentioning a much more serious and dedicated CEO. To me, it is a hint that the previous CEO, the one during LL’s time, was not good, sorry.
- that despite a good CEO and things getting much better, the temperature in the refrigerators where medications were kept was not regulated properly (and I immediately think, vaccines! Sera, antibiotics). Also, that some medications expired. Now, there are many that might expire and are still good, but not antibiotics.
- the committee mentioned problem of inter hospital sepsis.
- also, that there were not enough nurses in ER.

Any hospital is not super organized. Any could get strikes against it. But if with a good CEO and much improvement things were still far from ideal in medications area and in staffing, I can imagine someone confusing the bags in the pharmacy; less so on the floor, though.

So, again, without knowing how it is done, it is either LL, who was hanging the bag, or it was a confusion in the pharmacy.

Confusion in the pharmacy is an interesting theory! Maybe they checked the logs how many bags were made over that day and found none were made at the same time or just before? Will be good to hear the testimonies about those events. There are two insulin poisoning suspicions right?

 

[Dcflag]

That would be a good reason. Did she say that in the police interview? She must’ve been asked.

As far as can remember there wasn’t any response from her reported about that particular incident. She may have said she didn’t know it didn’t remember why she had attended the baby that wasn’t hers. I’d have to look back. Hopefully we get much more depth as the months go on.

<modsnip: sub judice> But you can absolutely see how some of this could be attributed to having far more of a burden on her than it should’ve been. I wonder if the defence has looked into the potential likelihood of the tpn bag being incorrect and not tampered with on the ward. Has it happened in other instances? Is there any stats in terms of it happening in other hospitals? Is it actually a thing?

 

[Dcflag]

Confusion in the pharmacy is an interesting theory! Maybe they checked the logs how many bags were made over that day and found none were made at the same time or just before? Will be good to hear the testimonies about those events. There are two insulin poisoning suspicions right?

That’s right there are two. One was prescribed insulin and one was not I believe.

 

[Sillybilly]

ONE MORE TIME WITH FEELING !!

ADMIN NOTE:

This is a trial thread to discuss the trial only. It is not a general discussion thread.

Although WS is based in the USA, we do try to manage the various discussions according to laws of other countries.

As this trial is in the UK, the case is under sub judice so please stick to discussing the trial content without posting anything that violates the following principles:

Basically anything that may prejudice the accused’s right to a fair trial
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(i.e. the accused cannot be called "the killer"; use "the accused", "the alleged killer", or "the defendant")
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Note in the event of an Appeal subsequent to verdict:

Appeals are usually heard by senior judges who are not likely to be influenced by the media, therefore responsible comment is usually considered acceptable once a trial has concluded, regardless of if there is going to be an appeal.


Reference: UK Contempt of Court Act 1981

 

[Music2022]

As far as can remember there wasn’t any response from her reported about that particular incident. She may have said she didn’t know it didn’t remember why she had attended the baby that wasn’t hers. I’d have to look back. Hopefully we get much more depth as the months go on.

<modsnip: sub judice> But you can absolutely see how some of this could be attributed to having far more of a burden on her than it should’ve been. I wonder if the defence has looked into the potential likelihood of the tpn bag being incorrect and not tampered with on the ward. Has it happened in other instances? Is there any stats in terms of it happening in other hospitals? Is it actually a thing?

I asked a friend who works in a pharmacy in a NICU department, she said they never put insulin in a tpn bag as it would be the completely the wrong place for it. Interesting.

 

[Marantz4250b]

All I see so far is that the accusations of LL appear more behavior-based than fact-based. There are too few hard facts so far. Except for that insulin, but even that can’t be proven that it was LL who added it to the bag.

To be fair, there are essentially zero hard facts so far. We are less than a week into a potential six month trial and virtually none of the "evidence" has been put to the test.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I asked a friend who works in a pharmacy in a NICU department, she said they never put insulin in a tpn bag as it would be the completely the wrong place for it. Interesting.

Someone on this site, on this thread, also posted same a few days ago - that insulin is not added into the TPN bag made up by the pharmacy.

 

[Tortoise]

Someone on this site, on this thread, also posted same a few days ago - that insulin is not added into the TPN bag made up by the pharmacy.

This is the quote from the prosecutor in his opening speech -

"2:27pm

"As a matter of practice", insulin is "never" added to a TPN bag.
Insulin is "given via its own infusion, usually in a syringe which delivers an automatic dose over a period of time".
The prosecution adds insulin is not added to a TPN bag as it would "stick to the plastic - or bind" to the bag, making it difficult to accurately give a reliable dose."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

This is the quote from the prosecutor in his opening speech -

"2:27pm

"As a matter of practice", insulin is "never" added to a TPN bag.
Insulin is "given via its own infusion, usually in a syringe which delivers an automatic dose over a period of time".
The prosecution adds insulin is not added to a TPN bag as it would "stick to the plastic - or bind" to the bag, making it difficult to accurately give a reliable dose."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

Thank you for clarifying as I was becoming anxious as to having posted something with no reference or verification, phew!

 

[Charlot123]

This is the quote from the prosecutor in his opening speech -

"2:27pm

"As a matter of practice", insulin is "never" added to a TPN bag.
Insulin is "given via its own infusion, usually in a syringe which delivers an automatic dose over a period of time".
The prosecution adds insulin is not added to a TPN bag as it would "stick to the plastic - or bind" to the bag, making it difficult to accurately give a reliable dose."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

Thank you. So, no chance it was done in the pharmacy.

Another question- and it is important as I am very far from NICU. From my understanding, it is uncommon to use insulin in the NICU.

How high is the chance of it being kept in the NICU and used vs being brought into the unit by someone?

Also, what always bothers me. Were there no cameras in the nursing station or the area where the meds were kept? Were there any cameras in that hospital or NICU?

I don't have any opinion about the case, merely trying to find some objective data.

 

[Dcflag]

Thank you. So, no chance it was done in the pharmacy.

Another question- and it is important as I am very far from NICU. From my understanding, it is uncommon to use insulin in the NICU.

How high is the chance of it being kept in the NICU and used vs being brought into the unit by someone?

Also, what always bothers me. Were there no cameras in the nursing station or the area where the meds were kept? Were there any cameras in that hospital or NICU?

I don't have any opinion about the case, merely trying to find some objective data.

Is it uncommon though? My third pregnancy I had gestational diabetes. Standard practice is that when a baby is born to a mother with GD, baby has to have blood sugars checked 2-3 times before discharge, this is just because it can take a while for babies after birth to regulate their own sugars after being potentially pumped with it before birth. If blood sugar is low, they will end up in nicu with insulin until their body self corrects.

 

[Supernovae]

I've been thinking about the note. The police have obviously had it since the house searches in, what, 2018? Now, I speculated on previous threads on the significance of the shear length of time taken for the investigation and charging decisions. I suspect the defence team would have tried very hard to keep that out of evidence, and predictably so, that may explain the days worth of unreportable legal argument in the first week of trial. It may be that the years since have been taken with beefing up the rest of the case so that it could withstand losing that piece of evidence. What you think of that may depend on how you view the note itself. If you're not convinced that it represents a reliable confession then that would only accentuate the potential for confirmation bias. They came to the conclusion that she was a serial killer long ago and the medical evidence is tailored to provide a narrative of how that could have happened that is consistent with the recorded facts.

 

[Charlot123]

Is it uncommon though? My third pregnancy I had gestational diabetes. Standard practice is that when a baby is born to a mother with GD, baby has to have blood sugars checked 2-3 times before discharge, this is just because it can take a while for babies after birth to regulate their own sugars after being potentially pumped with it before birth. If blood sugar is low, they will end up in nicu with insulin until their body self corrects.

Glad you did well. Pregnancy is never easy, is it? If the blood sugar is high, the babies might be given insulin. But - if it is not added to the TPN, then my version is wrong altogether.

I still wonder if there was any camera in the unit and the way to check LL’s movements? This case is so odd.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Thank you. So, no chance it was done in the pharmacy.

Another question- and it is important as I am very far from NICU. From my understanding, it is uncommon to use insulin in the NICU.

How high is the chance of it being kept in the NICU and used vs being brought into the unit by someone?

Also, what always bothers me. Were there no cameras in the nursing station or the area where the meds were kept? Were there any cameras in that hospital or NICU?

I don't have any opinion about the case, merely trying to find some objective data.

Speaking in general terms, there’s always *some* chance bags could have been tampered with when being made up or handled by anyone from A to B, or even if there was an issue with any of the components.

 

[Dcflag]

Glad you did well. Pregnancy is never easy, is it? If the blood sugar is high, the babies might be given insulin. But - if it is not added to the TPN, then my version is wrong altogether.

I still wonder if there was any camera in the unit and the way to check LL’s movements? This case is so odd.

Fortunately I stayed diet controlled with no issues with him after birth so I couldn’t really say. I would hazard a guess neonates needing insulin would be on a sliding scale? A bit like women in labour who need insulin. But that is an utter guess I have to say!

I am confused about cctv though. What would be the reason for no cctv in a nicu ?

 

[Gardenista]

This is the quote from the prosecutor in his opening speech -

"2:27pm

"As a matter of practice", insulin is "never" added to a TPN bag.
Insulin is "given via its own infusion, usually in a syringe which delivers an automatic dose over a period of time".
The prosecution adds insulin is not added to a TPN bag as it would "stick to the plastic - or bind" to the bag, making it difficult to accurately give a reliable dose."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

What does the BBM mean? How does a syringe deliver an automatic dose over a period of time? I can see an insulin pump delivering an automatic dose over a period of time, but not a syringe.