UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[Charlot123]

the question of a (prospective) motive is an interesting one.

Before this came to trial I thought an ‘Angel of mercy’ type motive was the most likely, given her age and prior good record. I honestly expected more of the infants to be in a similar condition to Baby C, and thought perhaps LL might have falsely believed she was sparing them suffering or lifelong disability. We’ve seen nothing at all to support this from either side, though, so it now looks v unlikely.

The Prosecution seem to be painting a rough picture of someone motivated by sympathy/attention. This is certainly a possibility, but so odd that she would switch from being a caring nurse to seeing these same infants as so disposable.

Or perhaps the first death was an accident - a medical mishap that wasn’t picked up on in the chaotic, underperforming hospital setting - and she got some sort of rush from getting away with it? That she then felt compelled to repeat?


Everything sounds so unlikely. I know the prosecution are under no obligation to provide a motive but I do hope they choose to put one forward as the case develops, as I’m currently really struggling to imagine what would drive someone to this.

All entirely speculative and MOO - I am by no means convinced of guilt yet.

Neither am I.

I don’t know if I posted it yet. But I emigrated from the Soviet Union, and the SU’s history was ripe of accusing doctors of “killing” the government. There were two major “doctors plots”, one in 1937-38 and one in 1952-53. So many doctors were tortured, jailed and killed for just doing their job.

[Murderers in white coats--the physicians' plot against Stalin] - PubMed

During the Moscow trials in 1936-38 several doctors were sentenced for participating in the murders of party leaders. As others who were accused, the doctors willingly confessed to crimes they could not possibly have committed. A second doctors' plot took place in the autumn of 1952. This time...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

(I would prefer that this post is not removed, as one of my ancestors suffered in 1951 for being a doctor. He survived).

However, when I see “killer nurse” headings in tabloids, everything in me boils. Lest “the Sun” of 2022 wants to be like “Pravda” of 1938, they should tone down.

LL has not been deemed guilty yet. All ICU workers, all OBGYN specialists, all surgeons, even, are working under extreme pressure. We should recognize this pressure, and do everything not to jail the innocent.

Aside from the obvious risk of injustice, how many L@D specialists have been switching to OB only, because of lawsuits? How many NICU nurses left their jobs? We have to be very careful in the court of public opinion.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Agreed. It was in reference to the question over whether someone who trained for a long time to enter a caring profession could cause deliberate harm.

I’ve since mentioned a nurse who has been convicted of murdering babies though.

BA did not "train for a long time". She did the basic nursing training (and was off "sick" so often she's probably the nurse who's spent the least time training in modern medical history) and then started murdering people within days of qualifying and starting work.

She had no real desire to go into nursing. She got into it through an acquaintance because she was needing a job.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It's interesting that some people are looking at the situation from the point of view of finding evidence to support her guilt, which I suppose is fine for an onlooker of the case. I've seen a lot of people doing that.

Unless I'm mistaken, the jury are supposed to assume innocence and regard every shred of evidence presented by the prosecution with cynicism. I'm trying to do that as well.

I’m confident that’s the case, easiest route but she is “innocent until proven guilty” by the jury. Yeh that’s why I try and look at it from multiple angles otherwise you don’t see alternatives or other possibilities. I’m also looking at ratios, chance likelihood etc

 

[Marantz4250b]

We have no idea of the alleged motive because one has not been presented yet.

Her ‘personality’, which there has been next to nothing on, is of so little relevance when you consider the long history of “normal” serial killers in the public domain. But don’t forget, people who worked beside her were suspicious enough of her to raise it with superiors. That is in evidence.

No, I think one doctor has made general allusions to that fact that he might have done. He has even said that he wished he'd been more brave, or words to that effect, about pursuing it. Anything which has been said about her in this regard is very "wishy-washy" as far as I can see.

I have serious doubts that a very experienced doctor would have had issues about being "brave enough" to make a point to the hospital authorities if he had serious suspicions that a nurse was causing serious harm to babies. These are people with serious clout who would have been listened to!

 

[Dotta]

Neither am I.

I don’t know if I posted it yet. But I emigrated from the Soviet Union, and the SU’s history was ripe of accusing doctors of “killing” the government. There were two major “doctors plots”, one in 1937-38 and one in 1952-53. So many doctors were tortured, jailed and killed for just doing their job.

[Murderers in white coats--the physicians' plot against Stalin] - PubMed

During the Moscow trials in 1936-38 several doctors were sentenced for participating in the murders of party leaders. As others who were accused, the doctors willingly confessed to crimes they could not possibly have committed. A second doctors' plot took place in the autumn of 1952. This time...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

(I would prefer that this post is not removed, as one of my ancestors suffered in 1951 for being a doctor. He survived).

However, when I see “killer nurse” headings in tabloids, everything in me boils. Lest “the Sun” of 2022 wants to be like “Pravda” of 1938, they should tone down.

LL has not been deemed guilty yet. All ICU workers, all OBGYN specialists, all surgeons, even, are working under extreme pressure. We should recognize this pressure, and do everything not to jail the innocent.

Aside from the obvious risk of injustice, how many L@D specialists have been switching to OB only, because of lawsuits? How many NICU nurses left their jobs? We have to be very careful in the court of public opinion.

But this means that people's judgements are coloured by personal experience.

The SovietU has nothing to to with UK's nurse trial.

I don't see any conspiracy theory by Police or Prosecution.

Only the wish to find the cause of babies' numerous deaths.

Moo

 

[notsure]

While a lot of people are putting forward possible explanations for her motives, "if guilty", including attempted profiles of her as a potential psychopath, I see few posts putting forward the possible scenario that the hospital staff and experts have a vested interest in pointing the finger at her to avoid accusations of widespread sub-optimal performance within the unit.

 

[Marantz4250b]

We have no idea of the alleged motive because one has not been presented yet.

Her ‘personality’, which there has been next to nothing on, is of so little relevance when you consider the long history of “normal” serial killers in the public domain. But don’t forget, people who worked beside her were suspicious enough of her to raise it with superiors. That is in evidence.

No, I think one doctor has made general allusions to that fact that he might have done. He has even said that he wished he'd been more brave, or words to that effect, about pursuing it. Anything which has been said about her in this regard is very "wishy-washy" as far as I can see.

I have serious doubts that a very experienced doctor would have had issues about being "brave enough" to make a point to the hospital authorities if he had serious suspicions that a nurse was causing serious harm to babies. These are people with serious clout who would have been listened to!

 

[MachinaCollecta]

BA did not "train for a long time". She did the basic nursing training (and was off "sick" so often she's probably the nurse who's spent the least time training in modern medical history) and then started murdering people within days of qualifying and starting work.

She had no real desire to go into nursing. She got into it through an acquaintance because she was needing a job.

Why would LL’s qualifications and training forbid her from committing crimes against children?

 

[BuzzC]

While a lot of people are putting forward possible explanations for her motives, "if guilty", including attempted profiles of her as a potential psychopath, I see few posts putting forward the possible scenario that the hospital staff and experts have a vested interest in pointing the finger at her to avoid accusations of widespread sub-optimal performance within the unit.

It’s a possibility. This is one of the “explanations” I expect the defence will put forward.

Very much like the case you mentioned earlier.

 

[Dotta]

Why would LL’s qualifications and training forbid her from committing crimes against children?

Exactly.
Wasn't Ted B a psychologist?
He even worked night shifts taking the calls from desperate people wanting to commit suicide.
Helping them to overcome the crisis.

Moo

 

[notsure]

It’s a possibility. This is one of the “explanations” I expect the defence will put forward.

Very much like the case you mentioned earlier.

I don't think I mentioned a case.

 

[BuzzC]

I don't think I mentioned a case.

Apologies. Someone mentioned a case earlier which was along these lines. I’ve mixed you up with another poster.

But yes, such a conspiracy would be an interesting area to explore.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I've no idea if LL is guilty or not or have any idea what her personality is or was like ...none of us do as yet ..not from court anyway.

But if I had to try and imagine what type of person did this ..if anyone did.

Born to older parents, only child ...slightly old fashioned and socially awkward...not in the popular crowd at school.

Went into nursing and did well ..enjoyed the initial limelight and drama of it all and happy to be the face of the hospital etc.

Over a period of time got used to their role ...started to see others come into the team , young nurses popular with Dr's..popular with managers , boyfriends, marriage.
This nurse still single...constantly doing extra shifts but always the bridesmaid never the bride in all aspects of life.

Somehow???? Why ?? decided to make her own drama ...maybe to try and prove her skills .. maybe just to bring Dr's and drama onto her shifts ? Maybe just sick of the Unfairness?

Complete imagination on my behalf...call it my "post it note" ramblings

I do get where you're coming from, and I understand how those opinions of her could be formed, but I just don't see it with her. I really don't.

Yes, born to slightly older parents but not really. Her mother would have been 30 when she was born - perfectly usual. Her father, yes, a bit older but not massively so.

I don't see her as being "old fashioned". Her FB pictures certainly don't give that impression. The pictures don't paint her as the wild party animal, exhibitionist type but not as the reclusive wall-flower type, which seems to be being attributed to her, either. Lets not forget that, I think, this comment about her being a bit "socially awkward" seems to originate from one guy speaking to a newspaper who claims to have known her via an ex-girlfriend. How do we know that he met her any more than once? Given the circumstances, it's unlikely that he'd say ...ah, yeah, Lucy, absolutely amazing girl, thought she was drop-dead lovely! I don't put a lot of faith in statements like that.

Nor do I buy the fact that she saw life passing her by, her friends hooking up with doctors, getting married, having kids, etc and her feeling a bit passed over. She was 25, doing well in her career and leading the life she wanted. That's not old by any stretch of the imagination. Also, we don't know if she was single or had been for most of her adult life. There are a couple of photos in the news reports, however, which seem to be foreign holiday photos - one by a plant with lights on it with a restaurant in the background. That has the vibe of a holiday photo with a partner about it, to be honest. There is also a pic of her in the back middle seat of a car and a man's hand next to her - boyfriend? Another pic is of her in a bar with a male each side of her - men don't get themselves into pictures with undesirable women and however seedy that might sound it isn't untrue.

Herein are my "post-it note" ramblings!

 

[Marantz4250b]

What was the timeline? I seem to remember these comments were made at an inquest for one of the dead babies, but I’m not sure if LL had been arrested or charged at this point.

They weren't. He said that he wished he'd raised them to the coroner but didn't for whatever reason.

I have big issues accepting that a doctor would have reservations about raising concerns relating to a lowly nurse.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Why would LL’s qualifications and training forbid her from committing crimes against children?

I'm not aware that I've said that they would.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’m also not in the belief that people with a normal social mind can be triggered in any way into the murder of multiple innocent babies. It would take a pathological level of envy or hate to make a person do that only present in people of a diagnosable disposition.
I don’t think Anyone has stated that Lucy’s profession necessarily means she can’t do harm, just that her prior work history and seemingly the rest of her history would give no indication that this is a likely behaviour which increases the odds so to speak. It’s also noticeable that a statement that says “I killed the babies because I’m not good enough” might be taken with a pinch of salt because people do say and think things that don’t mean anything. They are also capable of unintentionally offending others and giving a bad image that doesn’t represent who they are sometimes.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Exactly.
Wasn't Ted B a psychologist?
He even worked night shifts taking the calls from desperate people wanting to commit suicide.
Helping them to overcome the crisis.

Moo

I don't think he was but I'm up for being corrected.

Yes, I think he did work for a suicide hotline or something but I got the impression that they'd take anyone, essentially. I don't think you needed many qualifications, if any.

 

[ShireChe]

I'm not sure the motive is going to be a big part of this case, apart from the human desire to put reason to a situation that seems beyond reason.

LL was arrested twice and then held for a long, long time before the trial. I'd have though it would have been at least a part of the prosecution opening if they had a clear one. Obviously it would hugely strengthen the prosecution case if they do have one, but we shall see.

 

[Dotta]

I don't think he was but I'm up for being corrected.

Yes, I think he did work for a suicide hotline or something but I got the impression that they'd take anyone, essentially. I don't think you needed many qualifications, if any.

If this is true then I pity the desperate callers.
No qualifications? Wow!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Apologies. Someone mentioned a case earlier which was along these lines. I’ve mixed you up with another poster.

But yes, such a conspiracy would be an interesting area to explore.

I've never bought "conspiracy" theories, to be honest. If, and it's a big IF something similar is going on here then it's definitely not a case of an intentional stitch-up. That would require a bunch of people who are responsible for being in charge of a chronically failing neonatal unit to be closet criminal geniuses in being able to set up some poor nurse for immensely serious crimes.

If she's the by-product of a failing system it's because the failing system was so bad that the blame was likely to fall on someone in the power orders and it's fallen on her. Not because someone planned to set her up. Useless managers aren't tht clever.