UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[MsBetsy]

In what context was this?

If under the stress of aggressive interrogation, I wouldn't be surprised if she forgot her own name.

Do we know that it was an aggressive interrogation? Didn't police interview her many times? Did they tell her she was a suspect at the time?

 

[Marantz4250b]

2:23pm

She agreed she had been taught to prime lines so air could not get in them.
She denied having done so via Child A's long line or UVC.
She said she didn't know exactly what an air embolism was.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 26

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

That's really weird because lines one and three of that are logically incompatible. If you've been taught the former you know that the reason you're taught it is so that the latter doesn't happen! You cannot not know what an air embolism is in those circumstances.

I do wonder whether this is perhaps a transcription error on the part of the reporter? Do they actually mean that she did not know how and air embolism could happen, for example?

 

[notsure]

Do we know that it was an aggressive interrogation? Didn't police interview her many times? Did they tell her she was a suspect at the time?

No, we don't know. I said "if..."

 

[Marantz4250b]

Do we know that it was an aggressive interrogation? Didn't police interview her many times? Did they tell her she was a suspect at the time?

They'd arrested her. She knew she was a suspect!

 

[JosieJo]

That's really weird because lines one and three of that are logically incompatible. If you've been taught the former you know that the reason you're taught it is so that the latter doesn't happen! You cannot not know what an air embolism is in those circumstances.

I do wonder whether this is perhaps a transcription error on the part of the reporter? Do they actually mean that she did not know how and air embolism could happen, for example?

The standard have been pretty good with their reporting so I've no reason to think it's not accurate.

This was agreed evidence so as long as its not an error which is unlikely imo it looks like someone deliberately trying to distance themself

 

[MsBetsy]

They'd arrested her. She knew she was a suspect!

I wasn't sure how many times she was interviewed or whether they had questioned her before the arrest. I'm assuming she had a lawyer by this time?

 

[FruitTingles]

Some additional detail from today in the DM. This is the second time so far LL has told either parents or doctors she believes babies are going to die when all the other medical staff are convinced they're healthy and well (said it with one of the other babies at the end as well, can't remember which). It's so weird. I personally think it's really unprofessional and cruel to tell parents their child is about to die when it's not what the doctors have said or indicated - I mean these are human beings with emotions, nothing excuses this callousness tbh.

Premature baby survived 'injection of air', Lucy Letby trial hears

The parents of Baby C, who is alleged to have been killed by neonatal nurse Lucy Letby, claim their newborn son was taken from their arms as they tried to comfort the dying baby.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"Today the jury at Manchester Crown Court was read a statement in which the father recalled him and his wife holding him as his life ebbed away.

'There was nothing more that could be done for him,' said the father. 'We just wanted to cuddle him and make him pain-free. We didn't want to leave him while he was still alive'.

A nurse he thought may have been Letby came in with a ventilated basket. She allegedly told the couple: 'You've said your goodbyes. Do you want me to put him in here?'

'This comment shocked us,' admitted the father.

'My wife said: 'He's not dead yet'. The nurse backed off and tried to defuse the situation, but I couldn't believe she'd said that'.

I didn't really take in what was happening, and didn't take in the severity of the situation, until a nurse came up and asked whether I wanted someone to call a priest.

'I remember feeling quite shocked and I asked if she thought he was going to die. She responded: "Yes, I think so".

'I was surprised that this piece of information came from a nurse rather than a doctor.'

She described the nurse as being in her mid to late 20s with a fair complexion and her hair in a ponytail."

This is just horrific

 

[squish]

Been re-reading some of the evidence, and I think Baby E is one of the prosecution’s stronger cases. There is a credible witness in the mother, and solid evidence of LL lying and falsifying records, plus she has given herself away in her police interview as directly contradicting the mother’s account. The phone records back up the mother.

It is a terrible shame the parents opted to not have an autopsy, since I think this case would have had the most obvious medical signs of foul play. I suspect with the blood loss and physical trauma, if this baby had been examined they would have found evidence of foul play even without suspecting a rogue nurse was at work.

 

[kittythehare]

I don’t quite understand her logic in saying that. Maybe I’m missing something? If you’re not good enough to care for a baby, let’s say baby C, why don’t you just leave it to the nurse that was designated to look after it. Why allegedly kill the baby? Same with the others, why not quit being a nurse or ask to be assigned to the most healthy babies in room 3 instead of room 1. This thing she wrote really confuses me.

I read some of it as someone taking notes while on a phone call.
As if writing what the caller had told her.
It has no significance without context.
But I imagine context exists, just not yet presented..

 

[Kemug]

It is a terrible shame the parents opted to not have an autopsy, since I think this case would have had the most obvious medical signs of foul play. I suspect with the blood loss and physical trauma, if this baby had been examined they would have found evidence of foul play even without suspecting a rogue nurse was at work.

Yes, and no. You can understand them refusing an autopsy, they would just want their poor little baby to rest in peace.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I read some of it as someone taking notes while on a phone call.
As if writing what the caller had told her.
It has no significance without context.
But I imagine context exists, just not yet presented..

I'd never thought of it in terms of reading like phone call notes but I guess it does have that vibe to it.

As regards the note more generally, I think that people are making the mistake of considering it as being one single document when really it isn't. Yes, it's one document in the physical sense but it's significance, and construction, I think, needs to be considered in terms of it being several documents on the same piece of paper as it clearly wasn't all written at the same time. It's not a cohesive whole as parts of it are obviously contradictory to others. I don't know if we'll ever know precisely when each bit was written but they all need to be considered in the particular context of when she wrote them.

 

[Sweeper2000]

In regards to the Lucy not knowing “exactly” what a embolism was I can’t quite figure out exactly why she would lie about something that is such a pronounced part of nursing. I don’t see how she thought people would believe her saying it, it’s so blatant that it kind of goes against the thought she would deliberately lie about it without thinking it would be noticed as being suspect. I don’t see any potential benefit for her lying about it. I also notice it wasn’t a complete denial of knowing anything about them but perhaps some aspect of “embolism” is what she doesn’t know. It’s definitely something to note but in the absence of any other evidence that would give an indication as to dishonesty being a part of LL I might not pay too much attention to it. I would like to see the instance of LL falsifying the medical notes and what that’s about. Interesting also because it’s one of very few instances of potential dishonesty on the part of LL. one of two so far and two in a year full of highly questionable events isn’t much to go on at all. I would assume the prosecution would have gathered other evidence of these irregularities had they actually occurred. What does everyone else think on that and LL being dishonest?

(I’m looking for these specifically because it’s very much in line with someone actively deceiving everyone else on the ward).

 

[truecrimedoc94]

Hi guys! Long time follower, but thought maybe I could weigh in. I am a physician trained in radiation oncology, but did a surgical internship as well. I am trained to interpret images (MRI, CT, XR) but admittedly no experience in post mortem imaging of neonates.
I am 100% convinced of the air embolism. In one article previously mentioned by one of the physicians involved with baby As care, it reports “blanching and areas of cutaneous pallor”.
I have seen two air emboli unfortunately, both adults. First was a patient we had just done a CABG on (open heart surgery), air into the right heart and I saw a VERY SIMILAR blanching effect as is being described in these cases. We had to recrack his chest and massage his heart and by some miracle the patient made it.
The second was another adult patient receiving a line from an inexperienced intern. Patient had Covid and needed a line ASAP for resusc attempt. I did not witness the line placement but was called to the code which happened within minutes of the line being placed. Patient became brachycardic and lost pulse, we got the patient back but they died of an MI a few weeks later. I did not witness the skin changes in this case, the patient was of African descent which may be why.

I’m sure you can infer which side I fall on regarding LL.

 

[Dotta]

Hi guys! Long time follower, but thought maybe I could weigh in. I am a physician trained in radiation oncology, but did a surgical internship as well. I am trained to interpret images (MRI, CT, XR) but admittedly no experience in post mortem imaging of neonates.
I am 100% convinced of the air embolism. In one article previously mentioned by one of the physicians involved with baby As care, it reports “blanching and areas of cutaneous pallor”.
I have seen two air emboli unfortunately, both adults. First was a patient we had just done a CABG on (open heart surgery), air into the right heart and I saw a VERY SIMILAR blanching effect as is being described in these cases. We had to recrack his chest and massage his heart and by some miracle the patient made it.
The second was another adult patient receiving a line from an inexperienced intern. Patient had Covid and needed a line ASAP for resusc attempt. I did not witness the line placement but was called to the code which happened within minutes of the line being placed. Patient became brachycardic and lost pulse, we got the patient back but they died of an MI a few weeks later. I did not witness the skin changes in this case, the patient was of African descent which may be why.

I’m sure you can infer which side I fall on regarding LL.

Medic's opinion can surely weigh in.
Thanks for joining us

 

[Sweeper2000]

Medic's opinion can surely weigh in.
Thanks for joining us

More than a medic I might add

Hi guys! Long time follower, but thought maybe I could weigh in. I am a physician trained in radiation oncology, but did a surgical internship as well. I am trained to interpret images (MRI, CT, XR) but admittedly no experience in post mortem imaging of neonates.
I am 100% convinced of the air embolism. In one article previously mentioned by one of the physicians involved with baby As care, it reports “blanching and areas of cutaneous pallor”.
I have seen two air emboli unfortunately, both adults. First was a patient we had just done a CABG on (open heart surgery), air into the right heart and I saw a VERY SIMILAR blanching effect as is being described in these cases. We had to recrack his chest and massage his heart and by some miracle the patient made it.
The second was another adult patient receiving a line from an inexperienced intern. Patient had Covid and needed a line ASAP for resusc attempt. I did not witness the line placement but was called to the code which happened within minutes of the line being placed. Patient became brachycardic and lost pulse, we got the patient back but they died of an MI a few weeks later. I did not witness the skin changes in this case, the patient was of African descent which may be why.

I’m sure you can infer which side I fall on regarding LL.

Hi and welcome, I’m sure your input will be insightful. Just out of curiosity would you know anything about “CPAP belly” as that seems to be the strongest thing the defence has offered against the AE theory. Also in one case air bubbles were spotted in front of the spine. I was wondering how that air might escape from either veins or the stomach and then move to the spine? Thanks

 

[Dotta]

More than a medic I might add

I thought a "medic" is a sweeping expression including all involved in medicine - doctors especially.

Medic - it sounds proudly.

There cannot be something more.

All medics are involved in saving lives and caring for patients.
From nurses, paramedics, to doctors.
I respect all of them!!!

But hey, as English is a foreign language for me, I might be mistaken using this word.
Moo

 

[JosieJo]

In regards to the Lucy not knowing “exactly” what a embolism was I can’t quite figure out exactly why she would lie about something that is such a pronounced part of nursing. I don’t see how she thought people would believe her saying it, it’s so blatant that it kind of goes against the thought she would deliberately lie about it without thinking it would be noticed as being suspect. I don’t see any potential benefit for her lying about it. I also notice it wasn’t a complete denial of knowing anything about them but perhaps some aspect of “embolism” is what she doesn’t know. It’s definitely something to note but in the absence of any other evidence that would give an indication as to dishonesty being a part of LL I might not pay too much attention to it. I would like to see the instance of LL falsifying the medical notes and what that’s about. Interesting also because it’s one of very few instances of potential dishonesty on the part of LL. one of two so far and two in a year full of highly questionable events isn’t much to go on at all. I would assume the prosecution would have gathered other evidence of these irregularities had they actually occurred. What does everyone else think on that and LL being dishonest?

(I’m looking for these specifically because it’s very much in line with someone actively deceiving everyone else on the ward).

Personally "if" a person had chose to use the method of air embolism as a way of causing harm ..if questioned by the police you may try to distance yourself from knowing "exactly" what it is ...that may be a first reaction..in a panic just realising the police may know exactly the method you took...you are not saying no outright ...but also not offering on a plate that you know everything about it.

Other possible distancing tactics might be saying you don't remember searching for the parents.. when in reality most might say I have searched parents many times as I wonder how they are but I can't remember specific names

 

[truecrimedoc94]

More than a medic I might add



Hi and welcome, I’m sure your input will be insightful. Just out of curiosity would you know anything about “CPAP belly” as that seems to be the strongest thing the defence has offered against the AE theory. Also in one case air bubbles were spotted in front of the spine. I was wondering how that air might escape from either veins or the stomach and then move to the spine? Thanks

I’m excited to follow along and hopefully provide some clarity for everyone! I have been doing research on this all morning because it is medically fascinating in the worst way possible. I have found several reports of air within the CNS in front of the spinal cord itself. I cannot rationalize how this would happen from CPAP belly alone…CPAP belly is something that should never happen with adequate respiratory therapists and doctor/nurse supervision. The air within the great vessels of the heart is so eerie it gave me chills when I read it. It’s quite obvious to me what happened here. And again, my own anecdotal evidence with the skin rash I witnessed in my own patient. I will look more into this on Monday when I have full access to the medical library at work.

 

[Dotta]

I’m excited to follow along and hopefully provide some clarity for everyone! I have been doing research on this all morning because it is medically fascinating in the worst way possible. I have found several reports of air within the CNS in front of the spinal cord itself. I cannot rationalize how this would happen from CPAP belly alone…CPAP belly is something that should never happen with adequate respiratory therapists and doctor/nurse supervision. The air within the great vessels of the heart is so eerie it gave me chills when I read it. It’s quite obvious to me what happened here. And again, my own anecdotal evidence with the skin rash I witnessed in my own patient. I will look more into this on Monday when I have full access to the medical library at work.

Thanks!
You seem very dedicated!

And I will be waiting here on Monday for the results of your search.
I'm not going anywhere - without my phone, that is

 

[Marantz4250b]

Personally "if" a person had chose to use the method of air embolism as a way of causing harm ..if questioned by the police you may try to distance yourself from knowing "exactly" what it is ...that may be a first reaction..in a panic just realising the police may know exactly the method you took...you are not saying no outright ...but also not offering on a plate that you know everything about it.

Other possible distancing tactics might be saying you don't remember searching for the parents.. when in reality most might say I have searched parents many times as I wonder how they are but I can't remember specific names

I tend to agree with this but I don't think that it's clear why she said it in this case. To be fair, we don't know the specific questions put to her and her precise answers.

On the matter of the FB searches; again I'd still like to know the specific questions put to her and, importantly, when they were put to her. I can't recall whether the prosecution has said anything on the latter point but, if I were guessing, I'd think that those questions were likely put to her on the second arrest or possibly late on in the first arrest. They would have only seized her devices at the time of the first arrest so would they have had enough time to examine them and to decide what questions to ask as regards them during the first arrest?

I can accept that she may have lied in relation to those questions but I don't think it automatically follows that that is an indication of guilt. Were it me in that situation then I could well imagine lying about such things under the stress of a police interview because it looks dodgy and possibly unethical. If she is just the type of person who needs answers and can't just let things drop then I can well understand why she made those searches.