UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[Music2022]

Now this is interesting. Could it indicate a practice issue within the unit?

I wonder if it’s would’ve been because of the CPAP and if there was not enough drainage, the air quantity in the stomach would’ve gradually increased and the breathing would’ve become more of a struggle with time. While in this case it’s very sudden not being able to breathe. Hence they think it’s not CPAP related maybe.

 

[Dcflag]

I wonder if it’s would’ve been because of the CPAP and if there was not enough drainage, the air quantity in the stomach would’ve gradually increased and the breathing would’ve become more of a struggle with time. While in this case it’s very sudden not being able to breathe. Hence they think it’s not CPAP related maybe.

It is mentioned that the nurses were instructed to keep an eye on the baby’s stomach mostly due to the bile aspirations, and that it had been noted as soft. So I’m guessing that while on it’s own it could be a very real source of air, with the added attention on nurses checking baby c, it makes cpap a less likely cause of excess air.

 

[Anxala]

RSBM

Lucy Letby trial hears how doctor raised concerns but was told 'not to make a fuss'

Dr Ravi Jayaram, a paediatrician at the Countess of Chester Hospital, also said the unusual skin discolouration of Letby's first alleged victim, a baby boy known as Child A, "didn't fit with anything I had ever seen".

news.sky.com

From your link, LL's nurse colleague, also her mentor, says, under questioning, that she and LL became good friends, that her experience of LL was that she was, in her opinion, highly professional and dedicated to her job.

Is that the first/only incidence to date of her actual character being questioned in this trial and a colleague speaking out positively about her?

I hope we hear more about LL as a person as the trial develops because while she's at the absolute centre of everything, she's also peculiarly absent.

I still feel I know nothing at all about her and am wondering what those who've formed an opinion of her - either way - have based it upon.

 

[Dotta]

I hope we hear more about LL as a person as the trial develops. I still feel I know nothing at all about her.

That is why she should take the stand and talk.

Answer any questions truthfully.
Explain her behaviour.

Moo

 

[Knitty]

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[Supernovae]

3:09pm

Dr Evans: "You can't exclude infection from [Child C]'s general status.
"He's got an infection, but it's under control."
Mr Myers refers to another of Dr Evans's reports, from 2019, referring to infection being 'probable' as a significant cause in Child C's collapse.
Dr Evans says if he receives additional evidence, then he will change his mind.
Mr Myers says Dr Evans has not received any new evidence on Child C's infection since.

3:17pm

Mr Myers says the 2019 report said Dr Evans raised a possibility of deliberate injection of air from June 12 via the naso-gastric tube.
Dr Evans, reflecting on that report, said: "Can't rule it out".
Mr Myers refers to a 'massive gastric dilation' was 'most likely' due to an injection of air on June 12.
Dr Evans: "That was a possibility, yes."
Mr Myers says in that report, there was no suggestion the diaphragm had been splintered since, and if he wanted to say so in that report, he could have done so.
"If it wasn't said, it wasn't said."
Dr Evans said what was being discussed, on June 12, there was a "distinct possibility" Child C had excess air in the stomach from CPAP belly.
He was "still stable" from a respiratory point of view.
He tell the court: "However the air went in, it would have been insufficient to splinter the diaphragm on the 12th, as he would've collapsed and died on the 12th."
The air which had gone in was 'insufficient' to cause a collapse. There was 'nothing to suggest' the excess air was enough on June 12.
He says the two events on June 12 and 13 "are quite different" in the way they happened.
Mr Myers said that it was Dr Evans's view, a couple of months ago, there was deliberate harm on June 12.
"That was a possibility, yes it was."

3:19pm

Mr Myers: "What you have done today in your evidence is introduce something supporting the allegation."
Dr Evans: "That is incorrect."
He adds that in coming to his conclusion for this case he is not relying solely on his opinions, but taking in other clinical evidence and reports.
"That is what doctors do, we do it all the time." in what Dr Evans says is a "complicated case".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 1

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

BBM

This is interesting and significant. Looking back at earlier reports (from 2020) the initial charge of murder for baby C covered the 12th-15th of June.

Looking at the Chester Standard live blog from last Thursday, it was discovered at some point that Lucy Letby wasn't on the unit that day, and this may have lead to the change in the prosecution theory.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

3:59pm

The court is now hearing evidence from Yvonne Griffiths, who was the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit deputy manager in June 2015 and a senior nursing practitioner.
An 'admin error' had resulted in Ms Griffiths' notes for child C being written in the file for a different child, but the error was spotted and rectified quickly.
The note is written on June 14 on reflection notes from June 12, with care from 8am that day.

4:12pm

Ms Griffiths said, in the police statement, "it was very uncertain" what the outcome would be for Child C.
She confirms she was the designated nurse for Child C on June 12. She also confirms Letby was not in the unit that day.
Mr Myers talks through the nursing notes from the previous night shift, for June 11-12. At that point no bile aspirates had been recorded.
He refers to a note about Child C requiring an increase in oxygen when handling as Child C was desaturating.
Ms Griffiths says, in relation to the air in the stomach, the nurses "did everything" they could through the naso-gastric tube to aspirate air.

BBM

 

[MsBetsy]

That is why she should take the stand and talk.

Answer any questions truthfully.
Explain her behaviour.

Moo

I would think the jury would like to hear the defendants version of events.

Can LL decide at any time during the trial whether she wants to go on the stand? Anyone know?

 

[Supernovae]

I would think the jury would like to hear the defendants version of events.

Can LL decide at any time during the trial whether she wants to go on the stand? Anyone know?

The defendant would typically fall under the defence case, so the prosecution will complete their case before that even becomes an issue, which won't be for many months. The defence can then put her on the stand at any point until they complete their case.

 

[notsure]

I would think the jury would like to hear the defendants version of events.

Can LL decide at any time during the trial whether she wants to go on the stand? Anyone know?

I can't imagine how that would work. I guess they would have to question her on her memories of all the alleged offences. As with the other nurses and doctors on duty, her memory would probably be quite sketchy in this respect, relying solely on the notes made at the time.

 

[JosieJo]

BBM

This is interesting and significant. Looking back at earlier reports (from 2020) the initial charge of murder for baby C covered the 12th-15th of June. View attachment 377246 View attachment 377245

Looking at the Chester Standard live blog from last Thursday, it was discovered at some point that Lucy Letby wasn't on the unit that day, and this may have lead to the change in the prosecution theory.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

BBM

Is it possible LL was on the night shift of the 11th ? Therefore in theory working the first 6 hours of the 12th ? But not being on the day shift with the witness?

 

[Music2022]

BBM

This is interesting and significant. Looking back at earlier reports (from 2020) the initial charge of murder for baby C covered the 12th-15th of June. View attachment 377246 View attachment 377245

Looking at the Chester Standard live blog from last Thursday, it was discovered at some point that Lucy Letby wasn't on the unit that day, and this may have lead to the change in the prosecution theory.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

BBM

I think this hurts the prosecution’s case, with Dr Evans testimony anyway.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think that's misconstruing the words of the prosecution. Yes they used the words malevolent presence and reinforced it at every event, but not "that is the basis of our case", that would be to ignore all of the evidence which they intend to prove.

Perhaps you are thinking of statements like - "We also say that you are entitled to look at the evidence of what happened to [Child A and B] in the context of one, what Lucy Letby did to other children and two, most starkly, her having poisoned [two other children] with insulin."

That isn't the same as what you are saying though. That is allowing the evidence to inform them of proclivity, if they are satisfied that A & B are proven beyond reasonable doubt.

MOO

The point I was responding to was this;

MsBetsy said:
I don't understand the assumption that this case was formed because Letby was present for every collapse. The staff working with her didn't even seem to know someone was deliberately harming babies at first.

The staff working with her (some of them at least, and certainly one doctor) did think she was at best incompetent and, at worst, criminal because evidence has been provided under oath to show that. The prosecution themselves have said that she had had her shifts moved and was eventually put on admin duties specifically because of those suspicions.

The early press reports suggested that the hospital called in the police because their own investigation was unable to provide an explanation for what they claim was a spike in deaths and collapses. They then asked the police to "investigate whether offences had been committed". That wording implies strongly that the police investigated and that the evidence they uncovered in the course of said investigation just happened to lead them to look at Lucy Letby.

That is clearly unlikely to be the case though. It is inconceivable that the police did not start looking at Lucy Letby right from the outset given the actions already taken by the hospital. Therefore, this case was clearly and obviously formed around the pre-existing suspicion of guilt on the part of the person who was eventually charged and whom is currently in the dock.

Now, it may be that she is guilty. It is, however, looking ever more disingenuous to say that she was not under suspicion from the very start and that that suspicion started at the hospital long before the police were called in. The very foundation for that suspicion, as Dr Jayarama has said, was that he suspected that she may be up to something because he thought that she was unduly associated with a greater number of deaths and collapses than he thought usual.

 

[MsBetsy]

The defendant would typically fall under the defence case, so the prosecution will complete their case before that even becomes an issue, which won't be for many months. The defence can then put her on the stand at any point until they complete their case.

Thanks, that's what I thought. I read that Letby wasn't expected to take the stand. I thought it was unusual since many times that decision isn't decided until later or even at the last minute.

 

[kittythehare]

I would think the jury would like to hear the defendants version of events.

Can LL decide at any time during the trial whether she wants to go on the stand? Anyone know?

It will be in here somewhere but not found it yet, blind with tiredness

The Code for Crown Prosecutors | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

Yes, and forensic evidence is circumstantial as well.

But yeah, simply proving that a person was there for every incident is not proof unless it is backed up by other evidence. I just don't think investigators built their case based on her presence alone.

It's becoming increasingly apparent that that is how it started, though. When one starts down a line of investigation with a particular suspicion in ones mind, it's much easier to get "tunnel vision" and be blinded to any other outcomes.

 

[kittythehare]

I think this hurts the prosecution’s case, with Dr Evans testimony anyway.

She was on the night shift.

The Crown says Letby caused his sudden collapse and death on the neonatal unit night-shift of June 13 by injecting a fatal amount of air into his stomach via a nasogastric tube (NGT).

Expert medical witness denies ‘reaching’ to support claims against Lucy Letby

AN expert medical witness has denied “reaching for things” to support allegations faced by nurse Lucy Letby.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

From your link, LL's nurse colleague, also her mentor, says, under questioning, that she and LL became good friends, that her experience of LL was that she was, in her opinion, highly professional and dedicated to her job.

Is that the first/only incidence to date of her actual character being questioned in this trial and a colleague speaking out positively about her?

I hope we hear more about LL as a person as the trial develops because while she's at the absolute centre of everything, she's also peculiarly absent.

I still feel I know nothing at all about her and am wondering what those who've formed an opinion of her - either way - have based it upon.

One of the things that intrigued me from first hearing of this (when she was arrested and charged in November 2020) and has continued to fascinate me is that I have never read a single thing anywhere about her from anyone who knows her which is not unwaveringly complementary of her. She was first arrested over four years ago and I can't find a single comment from anyone who claims to have met her which is at all bad or which paints her in any sort of negative light.

<modsnip - rumors not permitted>

 

[Dotta]

I can't imagine how that would work. I guess they would have to question her on her memories of all the alleged offences. As with the other nurses and doctors on duty, her memory would probably be quite sketchy in this respect, relying solely on the notes made at the time.

I don't understand.

Surely, she can answer questions and present her version of events, the note, FB searches, meetings with babies' parents, etc.

If not she herself - then who?

I would walk through fire to prove my innocence.

Taking the stand to explain things in front of Jury and the Judge is a privilege IMO.
To clarify any doubts.

Moo

 

[Marantz4250b]

That is why she should take the stand and talk.

Answer any questions truthfully.
Explain her behaviour.

Moo

As I think was mentioned at the start - I doubt she's in any fit state to hold up to the inevitable barrage she'll have to endure on the stand. Her defence KC alluded as much in his opening statement.

 

[notsure]

I don't understand.

Surely, she can answer questions and present her version of events, the note, FB searches, meetings with babies' parents, etc.

If not she herself - then who?

I would walk through fire to prove my innocence.

Taking the stand to explain things in front of Jury and the Judge is a privilege IMO.
To clarify any doubts.

Moo

Yes, sure, of course that would be the ideal situation. But what I'm saying is: if innocent, she won't have any better memory of those cases than any of the other people on the stand so far. None of them could remember exact details and were only referring to notes made at the time.