UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #6

[annpats]

That's not always the case though. I know it's not because I researched cases where people have been granted bail whilst on a murder charge. Granted it is very rare but it does happen.

I expect the main reason was that LL was held on remand more for her own safety than anything else, just in case a member of the public or a relative of a deceased baby sought revenge or went 'vigilante'.

LL will be back in prison when this trial breaks up for Christmas break, and as she's been on remand since November 2020, this Christmas will be her THIRD Christmas behind bars.

 

[annpats]

I’d argue personally that it is strange to not know basic calculations when that is your line of work.

Do you think LL did know how to do the calculations quite well, but was pretending she didn't - and by heaping praise on the other nurse that did do the calculations, it covered her guilt at what she was allegedly attempting to do/had done?

It could also have made LL look like the kindly, friendly nurse who sometimes comes across as a bit of a 'bumble-head", and by playing it nicey-nice with her colleagues she was able to hide her actions more, in the sense she would be less suspected....?

 

[Kemug]

Some more of today's testimony

Lucy Letby trial: Colleague ‘had sleepless nights’ over neo-natal unit incidents

A SENIOR nurse had “sleepless nights” over incidents at the Countess of Chester Hospital neo-natal unit where her colleague Lucy Letby is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Do we know if LL had any sleepless nights, or said she did?

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Do we know if LL had any sleepless nights, or said she did?

Don't think we've heard that from her specifically yet, we've seen texts to colleagues where she does say it's been hard and she can't get it out of her mind etc. Obviously whether they're genuine emotions or not is up for debate

 

[BabaVanga]

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 10

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Dcflag]

Do you think LL did know how to do the calculations quite well, but was pretending she didn't - and by heaping praise on the other nurse that did do the calculations, it covered her guilt at what she was allegedly attempting to do/had done?

It could also have made LL look like the kindly, friendly nurse who sometimes comes across as a bit of a 'bumble-head", and by playing it nicey-nice with her colleagues she was able to hide her actions more, in the sense she would be less suspected....?

A good and interesting point. There was also the nurse she referred to as the new girl, who if I remember correctly was a designated nurse for.. baby b or c?

 

[Tortoise]

"After Child D had died, she told the court there was a discussion with Ms Letby about the resuscitation drugs used.

The chart advising dose levels would normally be kept by the child, but it was missing. The nurse said "it must have gone missing in the stress of everything".

The nurse said that Ms Letby asked her how she knew what dose levels to give, and the nurse explained how she did this by calculating the doses with Child D's weight, and using her years of experience"
UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*


Could also be seen as LL insinuating a mistake in the drug calculations led to baby D's non-response.

 

[Tortoise]

A good and interesting point. There was also the nurse she referred to as the new girl, who if I remember correctly was a designated nurse for.. baby b or c?

Oh, do you mean she could have been highlighting nurse's lack of experience, to insinuate an error made, in baby C's care?

"LL messaged her mum that morning to say: "We lost a little one overnight. Very unexpected and sad xx" LL added, in the message to her mum: "He only weighed 800g. Sophie the new girl was looking after him, she was devastated."

LL messages another colleague "Doing well on Optiflow. Then collapsed. All happened very quickly. Sophie had him and is devastated."

Fellow nurse told Lucy Letby she found hospital baby deaths strange

 

[Tortoise]

I'm surprised BBC hasn't done a write up on Dr Evans testimony yesterday evening. We only have BBC Andy Gill's tweets, but he usually does a write up afterwards and it seems like no other reporter was in court.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

10:32am

The court has been told a juror is unwell today.

10:34am

The judge, Mr Justice Goss, is explaining to the remaining members of the jury that the case cannot proceed today, as the trial needs all 12 members present.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 10

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

10:35am

Members of the jury are being asked to phone in this afternoon to say if they will be available tomorrow.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 10

 

[MsBetsy]

Sorry catching up as been busy so just addressing some points I noticed further back;

As regards the discussion relating to LL and the nurse where the resus chart which contained calculated drug doses to give in the event of a collapse was missing; the other nurse present knew the doses to give and did so. There was some discussion as to why LL didn't know how to calculate the doses but the other nurse did. The line said by LL which was how did you know that was seen as potentially suspicious or at least called into question her competency. I don't see it as suspicious at all and as soon as I read it I had a feeling I knew exactly what she was getting at.

Some people are very bad at mental maths, especially when put on the spot or under stressful situations. I am exactly that way. I consider myself far from thick but I have a massive problem doing maths problems in my head and have always been that way. I think it's reasonably common too.

When the other nurse said in reply, something to the effect of I just know and I suggest you learn it I don't think she was referring to the ability to actually do the calculations on the spot (although she may have been), I think she meant that she'd essentially memorised the doses through having done it and seen similar charts over many more years than LL had been working at that point.

Yes, people like Carol Vorderman or Rachael Riley can indeed do very fast mental maths but most people can't and even when you think you are doing it you really aren't. If you are asked what ten plus ten is you don't do the arithmetic in your head, you just know the answer is twenty. I think something similar was at work here. So, I suspect that the nurse in question perhaps wasn't actually doing the mental calculations but, rather, simply knew what the correct doses to administer were.

LL clearly does know how to do the drug calcs as she's a qualified nurse so would have had to pass that bit - it's a 100% pass too, I believe. The requirement is to know how to make the calcs, not to be able to do them under pressure. And, let's face it, if it was an easy thing to do then there wouldn't be a piece of paper with them noted on it attached to the bed!

I would think part of their training would include calculating the doses under pressure, especially in an environment such as the NICU.

 

[annpats]

Oh, do you mean she could have been highlighting nurse's lack of experience, to insinuate an error made, in baby C's care?

LL added, in the message to her mum: "He only weighed 800g. Sophie the new girl was looking after him, she was devastated."

Very unprofessional calling another nurse 'the new girl'. She may be new to that hospital but could've had a wealth of experience from elsewhere.

Even if she is newly qualified, you don't want to highlight that to the parents, possibly causing them more anxiety and worry at an already fractious time.

 

[covid2020]

Very unprofessional calling another nurse 'the new girl'. She may be new to that hospital but could've had a wealth of experience from elsewhere.

Even if she is newly qualified, you don't want to highlight that to the parents, possibly causing them more anxiety and worry at an already fractious time.

That's a stretch! It is common workplace talk and an identifier. I hear the term 'new girl' or 'new guy' at work all the time.

 

[Tortoise]

Very unprofessional calling another nurse 'the new girl'. She may be new to that hospital but could've had a wealth of experience from elsewhere.

Even if she is newly qualified, you don't want to highlight that to the parents, possibly causing them more anxiety and worry at an already fractious time.

This was a message LL sent to her own mum, not the baby's mum.

 

[MsBetsy]

That's not always the case though. I know it's not because I researched cases where people have been granted bail whilst on a murder charge. Granted it is very rare but it does happen.

But in this case there are 7 murder charges and 15 attempted murder charges.

 

[Tortoise]

11:18am

Mr Justice James Goss had told members of the jury "these things happen", and they have been sent home for the day.
The court was told it had been planned for today and Friday to be 'half-days' for evidence, due to witness availability. If the trial is able to resume on Friday, it would be a full day of evidence.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 10

 

[covid2020]

6 months is a long time to be on a jury. Most working people could not take that time off regardless of any monies they may get from the government (and it is not much!).

 

[Tortoise]

6 months is a long time to be on a jury. Most working people could not take that time off regardless of any monies they may get from the government (and it is not much!).

Jurors who are employed can claim up to £129.91 per day for a trial lasting over 10 days. That's £649.55 per week, or £2,598.20 per 4 week month.

Jury service

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I expect the main reason was that LL was held on remand more for her own safety than anything else, just in case a member of the public or a relative of a deceased baby sought revenge or went 'vigilante'.

LL will be back in prison when this trial breaks up for Christmas break, and as she's been on remand since November 2020, this Christmas will be her THIRD Christmas behind bars.

Over time a few people have made this suggestion. Just to point out that nobody is ever detained in a prison to 'keep them safe', far from it, it would be legally unjustifiable and a human rights violation of the highest order.

It is an extremely serious thing to deprive a person of their liberty which is held as the most serious punishment meted out to anyone within our UK justice system (and most other countries). It is legally determined as to whether someone needs to be remanded in custody and the basis for that involves various factors, usually:

a) whether they are a 'flight risk' prior to a court hearing;
b) the seriousness of the crime alleged;
c) the likelihood of the defendant perpetrating more of the same crime if left in the community;
d) the likelihood of the defendant gaining a lengthy prison sentence that justifies the time spent in remand;
e) the public interest in ensuring the defendant is detained to answer to the alleged crime;

Personally, I am pretty shocked that LL is held in remand, especially through the covid times when many offenders were left free, although the charges are serious and must be laid out in court. I don't see she would be a risk to the general public or that she's a risk of fleeing. She would of course need keeping safe and that would be achieved through other mechanisms. IF she is innocent of these charges then the magnitude of what has been done to her is horrific and life changing.