UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[Dotta]

At first my assumption was that the babies were randomly targeted. But seeing some of Tortoises timelines and seeing the rapid succession of the deaths of the first three babies was shocking. It’s within weeks, when you consider how many deaths they expect in a year, it’s alarming.

I forget who it was (perhaps tortoise again) who pointed out the time gaps between attempts on the same babies, some of which transferred out of the hospital and back again, really do seem to suggest targeted victims opposed to opportunistic or random.

I’m not sure that really says much in the grand scheme of things. It could be down to once an attempt has been made, closure dictates to retry until the baby has passed, almost like when people can’t just stop reading a book halfway or not finish a conversation to completion. I also think.. in terms of motives, it’s important to remember someone who is deliberately killing babies, is illogical. There’s not likely to be an explainable method to the madness. We may never know the reason.

There must have been some trigger, something common to all (alleged) victims.

Moo

 

[Anxala]

I’ve seen plenty in this thread dismantle anything that would even point to LL being guilty, which strikes me as doing exactly the same thing the other way around.

It’s an emotional case and there’s plenty left to go. Striking a balance is difficult when emotions run high.

Agree, it's hard, but it's not emotion that's leading me. I can of course understand the emotion-led perspectives but I suspect I'm not alone in just finding this case so extraordinary that a mixture of intrigue, fascination and, frankly, absolute bewilderment over time has overtaken and rendered emotion pretty much null and void.

What's keeping me following the case is the enigma of LL and the still totally unknown quantity of her. I find it absolutely impossible to square what we do know of her, courtesy of her family, friends, colleagues, with the evil, cold-blooded serial killer both the charges and much of the evidence against her imply her to be.

And to date, I've seen/read nothing on here or elsewhere that comes anywhere near throwing plausible light upon possible motivation on her part that could persuade me that she is this alleged monster.

I suspect I'll be fence-sitting to the end.

 

[ColourPurple]

She’s gaslighting. Pretending she imagines it would be hard to do when she knows exactly what it feels like because she’s done it repeatedly IMO

And she's not even saying she imagines that it would be. She's stating that it would be. How would anyone even know that?

 

[ColourPurple]

Friends reports that we do know about, suggested she was “awkward and geeky”. Photos that have been published thus far appear somewhat contradictory. I don’t know what awkward or geeky personalities demonstrate that of someone swinging round a pole/pole dancing or drinking large chugs of alcohol.

The messages between colleagues also don’t reflect someone as awkward either, awkward people don’t generally tend to be obnoxious with remarks of “trust me I’m a nurse”, telling her colleague off asking for help or even the response she gave to the police. It seems quite the opposite, quite arrogant if challenged IMO almost as if she is most experienced, better and bigger. The nurse who wanted to attend to the baby to which LL insisted she would deal with it.

Awkward peoples generally don’t keep going against their superior either, several times she asked to go back to her own babies. Other comments where she was upset she claimed something like, “I know how I feel and people should respect that” She actually appears quite arrogant at times in retrospect IMO

Maybe the uniform gave her the confidence that she lacked? Maybe the alcohol did too?

 

[Powermjp]

Yes, I agree.

She seems to have some knowledge there of what she's saying, and it's nothing close to a denial.

This is indeed a strange response, I've watched quite a few of these YouTube videos of analysis of police interviews. And the reaction to being directly accused is always very interesting to analyse.

The normal thing to do is to be shocked and even angry in belief, usually an innocent person would be very direct in denial (obviously not always the case as someone could potentially fake this response) imagine the spike of emotions, of being accused of something you didn't do. Would you really reply so calmly about the method?

The strange responses like hers, from what I've seen similar in quite a few interviews does indicate more towards guilt, it's as if the information was not new, (already processed so there was no normal response) she was expecting it, there was no shock at being accused of using air embolism to kill babies? Really? Just saying the method they are suggesting would be hard to do? It's as if she had thought this answer ahead.
You do find sometimes you get a detached "logical" answer they often will calmly say their alibi or reason they are innocent straight away

A guilty person, many times have an answer ready in response to deliver it calmly and think it's "good" without realising how unusual that is.


All my own observations of course

 

[Tortoise]

At first my assumption was that the babies were randomly targeted. But seeing some of Tortoises timelines and seeing the rapid succession of the deaths of the first three babies was shocking. It’s within weeks, when you consider how many deaths they expect in a year, it’s alarming.

I forget who it was (perhaps tortoise again) who pointed out the time gaps between attempts on the same babies, some of which transferred out of the hospital and back again, really do seem to suggest targeted victims opposed to opportunistic or random.

I’m not sure that really says much in the grand scheme of things. It could be down to once an attempt has been made, closure dictates to retry until the baby has passed, almost like when people can’t just stop reading a book halfway or not finish a conversation to completion. I also think.. in terms of motives, it’s important to remember someone who is deliberately killing babies, is illogical. There’s not likely to be an explainable method to the madness. We may never know the reason.

I think the multiple alleged attempted murders of particular babies, if proven, shows a sense of a grandiosity with her, that it won't be detected, in circumstances which would very obviously attract notice. Dr J was aware of her presence at some collapses by February and there must have been many he wasn't aware of with her kind of shadow presence with other nurse's babies.

 

[ColourPurple]

This is indeed a strange response, I've watched quite a few of these YouTube videos of analysis of police interviews. And the reaction to being directly accused is always very interesting to analyse.

The normal thing to do is to be shocked and even angry in belief, usually an innocent person would be very direct in denial (obviously not always the case as someone could potentially fake this response) imagine the spike of emotions, of being accused of something you didn't do. Would you really reply so calmly about the method?

The strange responses from what I've seen of quite a few interviews does indicate more towards guilt, it's as if the information was not new, she was expecting it, there was no shock at being accused of using air embolism to kill babies? Really? Just saying the method they are suggesting would be hard to do? It's as if she had thought this answer ahead.
You do find sometimes you get a detached "logical" answer they often will calmly say their alibi or reason they are innocent straight away. All my own observations of course

One thing though, if guilty, she appears not to have read the research paper that links the fleeting rash with air embolism as she's readily admitting that there was a rash.

 

[Sundial]

Hmm, this could also tie in with why she wasn't happy with a nurse for requesting help and why she wasn't doing as instructed when she was asked to return back to her own unit by the nurse in charge that one time. Interesting thoughts.

Yes, the same vibe. In some sense she seems to project as some kind of victim eg; can’t stop crying, people should respect that etc- which is of course totally fine of course and in some ways a natural response (if not guilty), and yet, its then total opposite end of the spectrum where she appears quite overly sure of herself with diagnosing, the parents are wrong/undermining them, the snide remark in the police report, chastising colleagues for asking for help, speaking authoritatively when asked by the police “maybe I’m more experienced”, but we are to believe she doesn’t know what an air embolism is.

I can’t help but question; if she is “more experienced” as she stated in her police report and appears to be quite irritated; then why are there numerous reports where she was stood not assisting very unwell babies including poor baby E with blood round his mouth. That is very hard to rationalise. MOO

 

[Sundial]

This is really interesting, also from the agreed facts of the 2018 police interview re Baby A

"Letby said she could not recall Child A's resuscitation, but recalled Dr Jayaram had entered the room."


I think it shows quite starkly where her awareness was at the time.

Again, I’m thinking back to when he first aired his show in May 2015 “born naughty” and the first case was child A, June 2015- the following month.

It could be completely unconnected and irrelevant of course, but isn’t it bizarre she can’t remember the resus but remembers “him” being there.

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes, the same vibe. In some sense she seems to project as some kind of victim eg; can’t stop crying, people should respect that etc- which is of course totally fine of course and in some ways a natural response (if not guilty), and yet, its then total opposite end of the spectrum where she appears quite overly sure of herself with diagnosing, the parents are wrong/undermining them, the snide remark in the police report, chastising colleagues for asking for help, speaking authoritatively when asked by the police “maybe I’m more experienced”, but we are to believe she doesn’t know what an air embolism is.

I can’t help but question; if she is “more experienced” as she stated in her police report and appears to be quite irritated; then why are there numerous reports where she was stood not assisting very unwell babies including poor baby E with blood round his mouth. That is very hard to rationalise. MOO

If guilty, the crying and needing to get back in room 1 to help her get over Baby A's death just look like manipulation.

If guilty, was there anything else that room 1 had that may have attracted LL to it, other than the sickest, smallest babies with more things to do than "just feeding" the babies? For example was it less accessible to other people than other rooms, more secluded? Greater access to medical equipment?

 

[Sundial]

If guilty, the crying and needing to get back in room 1 to help her get over Baby A's death just look like manipulation.

If guilty, was there anything else that room 1 had that may have attracted LL to it, other than the sickest, smallest babies with more things to do than "just feeding" the babies? For example was it less accessible to other people than other rooms, more secluded? Greater access to medical equipment?

I have wondered this too. It’s hard trying to keep track of each room, nurse and individual case with their timings; but also have questioned what it is that’s so significant about a room she didn’t want to be in; but then seems to make a point of being in there or even around certain situations (babies and parents) in a very peculiar way.

If something has upset someone so much and made an obvious point about it (which she did via her messages to colleagues), why on earth would you then contradict that or seemingly put yourself back into that position. It doesn’t make a lot of sense IMO

 

[ColourPurple]

"Mr Myers says the research paper in question [for 'the bends'] dealt with four overweight deep-sea diving adults.

Prof Kinsey: "Yes, there were many limitations to their findings."

Mr Myers said the results were "very specific based to the people [in that study]."

Mr Myers asks if the symptoms of decompression sickness would always result in skin discolouration. Prof Kinsey said it would not.

Mr Myers asks if that can be applied to babies - if an air embolus could always lead to skin discolouration observations. Prof Kinsey said it would not."

Aside from the fact that the reason they're referring to studies and examples that don't involve air embolism in babies is 1) Because its thankfully extremely rare for anybody to inject a baby with air or witness it and 2) It's hardly something you could replicate for research purposes...

I think his last remark is a bit of an own goal. By getting the medical expert to agree that air embolus would not always lead to skin discolouration, all it's making me (and no doubt others) think is "Oh so there could have been even more cases of air embolus that weren't picked up in the investigation, because there was no rash and the baby recovered." Surely it would make more sense for him to try to prove that other conditions could cause that fleeting rash? Rather than try to prove that the rash isn't always there in air embolus?

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 29

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Anxala]

My feeling is perhaps the punishing were meant for couples who were in love, and having their family.Allegedly, I think it might have been resentment and jealousy towards something she didn't have?

Again, she was 25 yrs old, with a job she loved, friends, a social life, a loving and supportive relationship with her parents. What would/could she have to be bitter and resentful about at that age that would have turned her into this monster that she's being portrayed as?

Were she in her late 40s/50s with a life of disappointment behind her - eg. a career that never went anywhere, a history of failed relationships - then I could maybe get on board the idea that a switch flicked and the disappointment turned into bitterness and then into something psychotic towards those who had what she didn't have, but not at 25 with her life as it was and her whole life ahead of her.

 

[ColourPurple]

I have wondered this too. It’s hard trying to keep track of each room, nurse and individual case with their timings; but also have questioned what it is that’s so significant about a room she didn’t want to be in; but then seems to make a point of being in there or even around certain situations (babies and parents) in a very peculiar way.

If something has upset someone so much and made an obvious point about it (which she did via her messages to colleagues), why on earth would you then contradict that or seemingly put yourself back into that position. It doesn’t make a lot of sense IMO

It's this exchange below though (from Tortoise's earlier post) where she's practically been begging to go back in Room 1 to help her get over Baby A's death in there, and is seemingly angry that she wasn't allowed to... and then Baby C dies. ETA- she says "not the vented baby necessarily- I just feel like I need to be in 1".

Is room 1 the only room where the vented babies/ventilator is? ??


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LL's text (Whatsapp) exchange with colleague Jennifer Jones-Key on Saturday 13th June 2015, during LL's night-shift - the night-shift when Baby C collapsed shortly after 11pm and died after midnight. The conversation starts at 9.48pm and concludes at about 11pm -

9:48pm –

JJ-K: "You ok? x"

LL: "I just keep thinking about Monday. Feel like I need to be in 1 to overcome it, but [nursing colleague] said no x"

JJ-K: "I agree with her, don't think it will help. You need a break from full-on ICU, you have to let it go or it will eat you up."

LL: "Not the vented baby necessarily, I just feel I need to be in 1, to get the image out of my head. To be in 3 is eating me up. All I can see is him in 1. It probably sounds odd but it's how I feel x"

JJ-K: “It sounds very odd and I’d be complete opposite.

LL: “Well that’s how I feel. I don’t expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I have dealt with it before. I voiced that so can’t do any more, but people should respect that.”

JJ-K: “I think they do respect it but also trying to help you.”
JJ-K: “Why don’t you go in 1 for a bit?”

LL: "Yeah, I have done a couple of meds in 1. I’ll be fine"

LL: "Forget I said anything, I will be fine, it's part of the job but just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight x"

JJ-K: "I am not going to forget but think you're way too hard on yourself."


The text message conversation, on Whatsapp, concludes at about 11pm.
Child C collapsed 20 minutes later.


Times of text conversation and additional text come from Chester Standard's live updates -
this post - UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*

---

[Not in podcast] - Texts between LL and the same colleague Jennifer Jones-Key on the morning of 14th June 2015 after Baby C had died and LL had finished her night-shift -

LL: "Sorry if I was off, just wasn’t a great start to the shift but sadly it got worse."

JJ-K: "You weren't off, you just were not happy and there is nothing I could say that was going to make it any better."

LL: "I was struggling to accept what happened to [Child A], now we’ve lost [Child C] as well and it's all a bit much."
-----------------------------------------------

UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*

Colour Code Blue text - Lucy Letby's (Defendant's) texts and Facebook searches Daily Mail article from Thursday 27th October 2022 - extracts: "Today, the jury was shown messages Letby sent to friends after finishing her shift that morning. [my note 14th June] [...] Later the same evening...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Kokopie]

I was thinking that If she is guilty, was she causing these collapses to try and get a particular medic to come to the unit. I know doctors flit around the hospital on a priority basis but did she perhaps have a crush maybe, wanted to be in their presence so causes catastrophe knowing they would then attend and be around for some time and not just a quick visit to do a prescription or a quick review? Particularly in the context of the Facebook messaging also. Very far fetched I know but just crossed my mind.

 

[Sundial]

I was thinking that If she is guilty, was she causing these collapses to try and get a particular medic to come to the unit. I know doctors flit around the hospital on a priority basis but did she perhaps have a crush maybe, wanted to be in their presence so causes catastrophe knowing they would then attend and be around for some time and not just a quick visit to do a prescription or a quick review? Particularly in the context of the Facebook messaging also. Very far fetched I know but just crossed my mind.

I had just been considering this too as a possibility; which would of course depend IF he was working similar shifts/was around much when these cases were happening.

For me and this is just my opinion; I am slightly drawn to when his show first airs and the first case (baby A) very soon after, and then LL as the face (part of) the fundraising campaign in August that same year. Does anyone recall how many registered nurses were on the unit at this time? Out of x amount of nurses, why was “she” the face of the campaign, has crossed my mind.

 

[Interested_Party]

It strikes me almost as if she’s mocking them IMO. I get the impression that rather give a definite “no I did not” reply, it appears almost mockery because the police don’t know her job etc; instead it’s this really obnoxious answer to something that is quite frankly so serious and harrowing..Yet she’s really blatantly arrogant in the reply, from a nurse, I find this rather extraordinary.

Very much agree it’s an odd response and potentially revealing but I don’t read narcissism (from this snippet). But perhaps the note and her evident distress has coloured things for me.

 

[notsure]

Maybe the uniform gave her the confidence that she lacked? Maybe the alcohol did too?

A glass of wine? I don't think that's likely.

 

[notsure]

I was thinking that If she is guilty, was she causing these collapses to try and get a particular medic to come to the unit. I know doctors flit around the hospital on a priority basis but did she perhaps have a crush maybe, wanted to be in their presence so causes catastrophe knowing they would then attend and be around for some time and not just a quick visit to do a prescription or a quick review? Particularly in the context of the Facebook messaging also. Very far fetched I know but just crossed my mind.

Far fetched? Not necessarily. From what I can see, everyone's allowed to give free rein to their imagination on this forum.

 

[Dcflag]

Again, she was 25 yrs old, with a job she loved, friends, a social life, a loving and supportive relationship with her parents. What would/could she have to be bitter and resentful about at that age that would have turned her into this monster that she's being portrayed as?

Were she in her late 40s/50s with a life of disappointment behind her - eg. a career that never went anywhere, a history of failed relationships - then I could maybe get on board the idea that a switch flicked and the disappointment turned into bitterness and then into something psychotic towards those who had what she didn't have, but not at 25 with her life as it was and her whole life ahead of her.

This is a whole load of assumptions though. There’s nothing that necessarily says she loves her job. It’s entirely possible for example she’s burned out, or the reality of the job is nothing like her expectation. Her parents come across as having a loving relationship with her, but again that’s just from our perspective, which isn’t much. Family relationships are often super complex and complicated.

I think going back to my post before, while I absolutely agree there’s been some kind of trigger that’s began this behaviour, it doesn’t have to be a particularly rational or logical trigger. It might not be something decipherable at all. It’s highly highly likely that regardless of who, if someone is murdering neonates, they’ve some mental impairment. Reminds me of the girl who didn’t like Mondays. Not everything is.. logical.