UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[crystalline]

Does anyone know if the consultant - the one who mentioned they had or tried to raise concerns, raised them 'officially'? via the official hospital route. I may have missed this being mentioned already.

 

[JosieJo]

Listening to the Mail Podcast (post #877) I've now got the full text conversation between LL and the designated nurse. The lines in red had not been reported before.


8am – LL finishes night shift

8.47am –
LL: "Did you hear what F's sugar was at 8am?"
Nurse: "No?"
LL: "1.8"
Nurse: "S***!!!!", now I feel awful but leaving it three hours didn’t seem excessive and it was only two and a half hours
LL: "Something isn't right if he is dropping like that with the amount of fluid he’s had and being 1.65kg, don’t think you needed to do it sooner, got to think of his poor heels too"
Nurse: "Exactly, he’s had so much handling. No something not right. Heart rate and sugars."
LL: "Dr Gibbs came so hopefully they will get him sorted. "He is a worry though."
Nurse: "Hope so. He is a worry."
LL: "Hope you sleep well, let me know how F is tonight please."
Nurse: "I will hun".


I think the 3 hours refers to the time between the blood sugar reading at 5am (that LL did), and 8am when the shifts changed.

From Prof Hindmarsh's evidence - Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, November 25

5.5 (11.32pm)
0.8 (1.54am)
2.3 (2.55am)
1.9 (4.02am)
2.9 (5am)
1.7 (8.09am)

"For the 5am reading, the blood sugar reading signature has the initials 'LL'."

It looks as if LL knew exactly which 3 hours she was referring to, they'd been testing it more or less hourly between 2am and 5am. The nurse was probably really encouraged by the 5am reading.

MOO

I do wonder how LL knew what the blood sugar was at handover but the designated nurse didn't

 

[Interested_Party]

Has there been any reporting on LL’s general demeanour/frame of mind now (or post-arrest)?

Also, what measures have been put in place by the prison service to ensure she is unable to harm herself?

 

[Tortoise]

This case is not a formality as in the type of case where a person is blindingly obvious guilty IMO.

My point was that it's perfectly normal to have an idea of one's opinion, in a case where there are 7 alleged murders, having heard the prosecution's evidence for 4 of them already - and having heard from many experts and specialists now - and having heard how they have handled the defence's cross-examination.

There isn't going to be someone turning up when the defence case starts, saying something that we haven't already heard from the defence (unless the reporting is really bad). As I posted above, the defence statement has to be in before trial starts.

It's okay to formulate opinions based on evidence heard and tested already. And to change one's mind again if something else is said that undermines that belief. We have to start making opinions as we hear evidence, or the evidence wasn't convincing in the first place, imo.

This case is also about whether these babies were attacked and murdered, not just about who the perpetrator was.

I have decided for myself that baby F was definitely poisoned by his TPN feed, and that I believe the testimony of the mother of baby E and the doctors who were on duty that night, and therefore that LL's nursing notes for baby E did not reflect what these witnesses testified to. I have also decided for myself that the medical expert opinions about air embolisms, together with x-ray evidence of air, and the suddenness with which these babies stopped breathing, babies that were stable and not dying, defying experienced doctor's expectations, is solid evidence that they were injected with air, as alleged in the charges.

MOO

 

[Interested_Party]

Does anyone know if the consultant - the one who mentioned they had or tried to raise concerns, raised them 'officially'? via the official hospital route. I may have missed this being mentioned already.

From the reporting there was never any specific detail on this, only vague allusions. I’m not sure if this reflects the quality of the press coverage or whether it was never delved into.

 

[ColourPurple]

Does anyone know if the consultant - the one who mentioned they had or tried to raise concerns, raised them 'officially'? via the official hospital route. I may have missed this being mentioned already.

Dr Jayaram. It says it was at the time of the coroner's report into the death of Baby A that he and colleagues had "begun to raise concerns". Not sure what date that was or how exactly they raised them:

"Dr Jayaram told Ben Myers KC, representing Letby, that he and his colleagues had become increasingly worried about a run of 'very unusual and seemingly inexplicable' collapses in the neonatal unit from June 2015.

The first of these resulted in the death of Baby A, who collapsed and died suddenly around 24 hours after being born prematurely on June 8.

Dr Jayaram gave evidence to the local coroner at the time, but agreed that he had failed to mention details of an apparent rash on the infant’s body that 'appeared, vanished, reappeared and flitted about' as medics tried desperately to save him.

During questioning from Mr Myers today, he acknowledged that detail of the discolouration – a 'bright pinkness against a background of blue-grey' - would have been 'plainly relevant' to the coroner as he tried to determine a cause of death.

Following half an hour of intense cross-examination, he told the barrister: 'At the time of the coroner’s report, we as a group of clinicians had already begun to raise concern about the association that we’d seen with an individual being present in these situations.

'And at the time we were being told that really we shouldn’t be saying such things and not to make a fuss.

'My concern is that had I suggested that this could be happening - I didn't have any hard evidence."

Lucy Letby trial hears TV doctor and his colleagues 'raised concerns'

The neonatal nurse, 32, is standing trial charged with killing seven babies and the attempted murder of a further 10 at the Countess of Chester Hospital between between June 2015 and June 2016.

www.dailymail.co.uk

And there's this, for child K (born Feb 2016) who we haven't got to yet:

"Dr Ravi Jayaram, a paediatric consultant who has appeared on This Morning and the One Show, had helped deliver the baby on February 17, 2016, weighing just 692g.

While arrangements were being made for Child K to be transferred to a specialist hospital, the medic was aware Letby was alone with her, it is alleged.

Nick Johnson KC, prosecuting, said: "Feeling uncomfortable with this because he had started to notice the coincidence between the unexplained deaths, serious collapses and the presence of Lucy Letby, Dr Jayaram decided to check on where Lucy Letby was and how child K was.

"As he walked into room one, he saw Letby standing over child K's incubator. She did not have her hands inside the incubator, but Dr Jayaram could see from the monitor on the wall that child K's oxygen saturation level was falling dangerously low, to somewhere in the 80s.

"But the alarm was not sounding as it should have been and Lucy Letby had not called for help, despite child K's oxygen levels falling.

"We allege she was trying to kill child K when Dr Jayaram walked in.""

Nurse 'caught trying to kill baby' by TV doctor suspicious at deaths'

A DOCTOR caught a nurse trying to murder a baby girl after he grew suspicious between her presence and unexplained deaths, a court heard. Lucy Letby, 32, allegedly murdered seven babies and attempt…

www.thesun.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

BBC reporter did miss the nurse today being asked if she gave insulin to baby F.


From ITV -

"The colleague, who cannot be named for legal reasons, said she had no recollection of the specific event and could not be sure whether it was Letby or her who put up the bag.

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, asked the nurse if she had put anything in the nutrient bag.

She replied: "Absolutely not."

She also answered "no" when asked if she gave child F any insulin at any stage during that shift, in any way."

Colleague of Lucy Letby denies adding anything to baby’s feed bag | ITV News

 

[crystalline]

Thank you for clarifying.

Wow... so a GROUP of clinicians begin to raise concerns;

'And at the time we were being told that really we shouldn’t be saying such things and not to make a fuss'

I really cannot get my head around this...

(I want to know who exactly told them to not make a fuss...)

 

[May72031]

I also wondered that we had a cluster of cases in June, then nothing for the whole of July. I read many serial killers have a cooling off period so perhaps this is relevant!

I mentioned earlier in the thread that there was a cluster of incidents in June 2015, and then it went quiet for over a month and a half. This was the point where LL mentioned talk of "an investigation" by the hospital, in texts to one of her colleagues.

 

[ColourPurple]

Thank you for clarifying.

Wow... so a GROUP of clinicians begin to raise concerns;

'And at the time we were being told that really we shouldn’t be saying such things and not to make a fuss'

I really cannot get my head around this...

(I want to know who exactly told them to not make a fuss...)

Hopefully there'll be a bit more detail when we get to baby K's case, as it isn't really clear so far WHO exactly they began to raise concerns to and who told them they shouldn't saying things like that.

 

[notsure]

This case is not a formality as in the type of case where a person is blindingly obvious guilty IMO.

It is very different.

 

[notsure]

I mentioned earlier in the thread that there was a cluster of incidents in June 2015, and then it went quiet for over a month and a half. This was the point where LL mentioned talk of "an investigation" by the hospital, in texts to one of her colleagues.

And then the alleged attacks went on for another year. Omg.

 

[Supernovae]

Following half an hour of intense cross-examination, he told the barrister: 'At the time of the coroner’s report, we as a group of clinicians had already begun to raise concern about the association that we’d seen with an individual being present in these situations.

'And at the time we were being told that really we shouldn’t be saying such things and not to make a fuss.

'My concern is that had I suggested that this could be happening - I didn't have any hard evidence."

Lucy Letby trial hears TV doctor and his colleagues 'raised concerns'

The neonatal nurse, 32, is standing trial charged with killing seven babies and the attempted murder of a further 10 at the Countess of Chester Hospital between between June 2015 and June 2016.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Font size increased by me.

Note Baby A's inquest was apparently in October 2016- after all of the other cases in the trial including the one that Dr Jayaram supposedly walked in on.

Dead baby had ‘extraordinary’ discoloured patches on skin, Lucy Letby trial told

The newborn twin died at the Countess of Chester Hospital just over 24 hours after his premature birth

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

The doctor accepted he did not mention the “striking” skin patchiness in a statement to the coroner ahead of Child A’s inquest in October 2016 when he said he thought he was “still upset”.

More oddly Dr Gibbs, who was presumably one of the group of doctors would have known about the lab report about the unexplained exogenous insulin administration to Baby F, which surely merited investigation in and of itself.

 

[ColourPurple]

I know that failed IVF/infertility has been discussed as a possible motive, if guilty, and dismissed because of LL's relatively young age. I was late to the thread so was there ever any discussion of whether IVF could be involved in LL's past in a different way, eg. whether LL could either be a product of IVF, or whether, if guilty, her apparently being an only child could be related to her alleged targeting of siblings?

Mention of her being an only child here:

"In 2011, her parents...posted a message in their local newspaper along with a picture of their daughter proudly wearing her mortar board hat to congratulate her on graduating with honours...One neighbour said their only child was 'a very career-driven person', describing her as 'so dedicated to her job'.'Her parents have been my neighbours for at least 25 years, so I watched Lucy grow up,' she said."

Police dig up back garden and search gutters at home of neonatal nurse

Police officers are digging up land around Lucy Letby's home in Chester and searching gutters after she was arrested on suspicion of the murder of 8 babies at the Countess of Chester hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[notsure]

I know that failed IVF/infertility has been discussed as a possible motive, if guilty, and dismissed because of LL's relatively young age. I was late to the thread so was there ever any discussion of whether IVF could be involved in LL's past in a different way, eg. whether LL could either be a product of IVF, or whether, if guilty, her apparently being an only child could be related to her alleged targeting of siblings?

Mention of her being an only child here:

"In 2011, her parents...posted a message in their local newspaper along with a picture of their daughter proudly wearing her mortar board hat to congratulate her on graduating with honours...One neighbour said their only child was 'a very career-driven person', describing her as 'so dedicated to her job'.'Her parents have been my neighbours for at least 25 years, so I watched Lucy grow up,' she said."

Police dig up back garden and search gutters at home of neonatal nurse

Police officers are digging up land around Lucy Letby's home in Chester and searching gutters after she was arrested on suspicion of the murder of 8 babies at the Countess of Chester hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

None of the above look like possible motives, IMO.

I can't imagine any motive for a person of her age and background with no previous mental issues. Unless all that comes out after the trial.

 

[Kemug]

And then the alleged attacks went on for another year. Omg.

And I take it that there have been no more attacks since LL left?

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I also think the IVF may have possibly been a factor. I just can’t shake the comment she made in a text to a colleague about the deaths of babies ‘I do think there is an element of fate involved in this’

Could IVF be something she considered to not be natural and therefore not involve ‘fate’? Because to me, that is a very strange comment to make, who would believe that ‘fate’ is the reason tiny babies are dying? IMO of course…

I too believe that the parents were actually the desired target, when I look at the charges and see that 2 babies from a set of triplets died, aswell as how it seems both babies in sets of twins were targeted, if it was nothing to do with hurting the parents then IMO, after killing one baby why would one immediately move on to that child’s twin, knowing the absolute agony the parents would experience, losing not one but both of their children? I’m sure there were other babies in the nicu, but it seems that someone made the calculated decision to move onto the remaining twin after the death of their sibling. If that isn’t punishing parents then I don’t know what is. MOO

 

[Dotta]

And I take it that there have been no more attacks since LL left?

And the cases of air e.?

 

[Ruby12345]

And I take it that there have been no more attacks since LL left?

The hospital was downgraded in July 2016 stopped caring for babies under 32 weeks and closed the ICU for premature babies.

 

[Kemug]

I also think the IVF may have possibly been a factor. I just can’t shake the comment she made in a text to a colleague about the deaths of babies ‘I do think there is an element of fate involved in this’

Could IVF be something she considered to not be natural and therefore not involve ‘fate’? Because to me, that is a very strange comment to make, who would believe that ‘fate’ is the reason tiny babies are dying? IMO of course…

Actually, there are people who would say "It was God's will", which I would find even harder to stomach.