GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[cottonweaver]

New news tonight that the Inquiry will be statutory

Lucy Letby inquiry will have power to force witnesses to give evidence

Ministers agree to give inquiry full statutory powers after families criticised current investigation

www.theguardian.com

Judge not appointed yet and ' terms of reference ' not yet decided

'Dr Ravi Jayaram, one of the doctors who raised concerns about Letby to senior managers at the Countess of Chester hospital, told ITV News: “I don’t understand why, right at the start, there was a rush to say it was going to be non-statutory.

“I’m glad this is going to be a public inquiry because no stone will be left unturned and questions that need to be asked will be asked and the answers will be found – unlike in a non-statutory inquiry where questions that will cause difficult or embarrassing answers won’t get asked.”

I do like Dr Jayaram, here's old interview where he struggles not to cry

ETA
Was reading backwards - news already been posted onto thread.

 

[cottonweaver]

Well, attending by video link is still attending, and the judges don’t have the power to order attendance in any form at the moment as I understand.

Former General Attorney Robert Buckland plus head of Criminal Bar Association ( & other legal pundits whose names I can't recall now) were on TV prior to sentencing saying that it could have been played into her cell even under existing law.

Justice Goss must have had a reason not to do that.

Who knows what it was but I imagine he thought it through. ( With manipulative LL, wouldn't surprise me if she'd been making absolute scenes down in that cell.)

 

[marynnu]

OMG
How small is this world!
Amiga!
Marynnu!
You could be summoned as a witness to Court!!!
AHHHHH!
OHHHHH!

I won't, but I might put on my Lois Lane sombrero & do a bit of court reporting if it comes to trial.

 

[cottonweaver]

I watched this analysis earlier today on another site. It's one of the most interesting takes on LL I've seen to date. Well worth a look/listen.

The psychiatrist is Dr Andrew van der Vaart.
Does Lucy Letby have a "split personality"? If so, what is she splitting off and why? I discuss BPD and its 4 archetypes as identified by Dr. Christine Lawson.

Thanks

Will take a look at that one.

See what you think of this one. Dr David Holmes ( It's the longest Holmes interview that I've been able to find. DH isn't a Psychiatrist, he trained initially in criminology before training in Psychology )

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I’m not actually for that chain em to the dock thing. I actually think if you force an already unwilling individual to do something you increase the likelihood of that person doing something nasty. I also think considering the type of person who would be in the dock, these are specifically people you don’t want to do this with. They could do some serious verbal damage with the opportunity, I wouldn’t want the victims to deal with anymore.

however blast it into the cell all day Long amped up. Make sure they hear the hammer fall.

I also agree with this, I don't believe that offenders should be forced to their sentencing if the current law says they don't need to be.

There are some offenders who turn up for their sentencing and laugh in the face of their victims / victims families or make horrific remarks or shout out obscenities. For some offenders it's all part of the circus and glory.

Also I believe that some people, possibly LL is like this, have such complex personality disorders that rely on unconsciousness, denial, dissociation, or compartmentalising, that it's genuine they cannot function in order to be brought into the court to their sentencing as they're in a form of mental breakdown.

 

[cottonweaver]

This is a very good insight in my opinion. Thanks for sharing. MOO

As another poster has suggested - take some prison privileges off her.

Whilst it's probably illegal - having just listened to that David Holmes interview - denying her all her fan mail would work for me. ( He's pretty matter of fact that she'll end up with marriage proposals and a little club of admirers & penpals)

 

[Dotta]

I won't, but I might put on my Lois Lane sombrero & do a bit of court reporting if it comes to trial.

Phew!
What a relief!

What a pity I will not be able to read it.
Im not going to follow a trial of another (alleged) maniacal killer nurse.

LL is enough for me to last a lifetime.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I've just been catching up reading and seem to think I read something about whether LL is a high risk prisoner?

I would say she is a high risk in many aspects - I think she would be a grave danger to any cell mate or anyone she shares any spaces with because I reckon she'd be a risk of poisoning or covert harm in the same way as she hurt and killed babies but using things available in prison. I'm not sure what's available in prison but I once heard a story of someone substituting toilet cleaning fluid into another woman's shampoo. And I'm sure there's confectionery and snacks made available that prisoners have in their cells and worst case scenario could be tampered with. Things like that.

Also she's at high risk of self harm / suicide / psychosis / breakdown all of those IMO.

Plus, obviously goes without saying at risk from both prisoners and the staff depending if they're 'bent' or not, there's a lot of corrupt staff in prisons.

 

[Dotta]

I've just been catching up reading and seem to think I read something about whether LL is a high risk prisoner?

I would say she is a high risk in many aspects - I think she would be a grave danger to any cell mate or anyone she shares any spaces with because I reckon she'd be a risk of poisoning or covert harm in the same way as she hurt and killed babies but using things available in prison. I'm not sure what's available in prison but I once heard a story of someone substituting toilet cleaning fluid into another woman's shampoo. And I'm sure there's confectionery and snacks made available that prisoners have in their cells and worst case scenario could be tampered with. Things like that.

Also she's at high risk of self harm / suicide / psychosis / breakdown all of those IMO.

Plus, obviously goes without saying at risk from both prisoners and the staff depending if they're 'bent' or not, there's a lot of corrupt staff in prisons.

I would not be surprised if she eventually landed in mental health wing of prison.

Not surprised at all.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

Thanks

Will take a look at that one.

See what you think of this one. Dr David Holmes ( It's the longest Holmes interview that I've been able to find. DH isn't a Psychiatrist, he trained initially in criminology before training in Psychology )

Wow. I think that was the best one I've watched. He touched on so many different aspects... from LL acting like she was the star of a movie... to the fact that she'll have deluded fans supporting her, writing to her and proposing marriage!

Also interesting that he said she wouldn't feel empathy for her own parents and would only be interested in what they could do for her to get her out of the situation. That sounds very like what happened when her parents accompanied her to the grievance meeting with the hospital CEO, and read out her "victim impact statement" to him!

 

[Parker Knoll]

Don’t leave us Dotta … we need you !

 

[cottonweaver]

Wow. I think that was the best one I've watched. He touched on so many different aspects... from LL acting like she was the star of a movie... to the fact that she'll have deluded fans supporting her, writing to her and proposing marriage!

Also interesting that he said she wouldn't feel empathy for her own parents and would only be interested in what they could do for her to get her out of the situation. That sounds very like what happened when her parents accompanied her to the grievance meeting with the hospital CEO, and read out her "victim impact statement" to him!

I saw a short he did on TV last week and he was matter of fact but impressive & obviously had followed trial. If I can re-find it will post. He was asked how the parent- victims should interpret LL and he was saying wtte of that they shouldn't think of her all and instead almost view it as a natural disaster in order to come to terms with it. ( Because of what she is)

 

[esther43]

Lucy Letby: Inquiry to be made statutory after calls from bereaved families

Health Secretary Steve Barclay said it was the families' "clear preference" that the inquiry be made statutory so that judges could compel witnesses.

news.sky.com

 

[katydid23]

The way I'm understanding it is the thing about infantile personality is that it's a subtype of histrionic, which means it doesn't fit the usual template, aspects will be somewhat adapted, and hidden IMO, because it's not okay for a 25/6 year old to have a tantrum a la 'terrible twos', her acting out will be the moments she expresses her rage and murders her patients, or her colleagues' patients, or has a meltdown, or cries. I think she has been described as pouty, her mouth turned down, in court, and been sketched like that by the court artist, and refusing to look at NJ. She has cried and tried to walk out when the doctor came to court, and we know she felt rejected by him from her notes. Clutching her blankie and toy.

She has been treated like a child in court, with her demands, IMO

JMO

I remember seeing the picture of her 2016 Journal/notebook. It looked like one for a kindergarten student.

Every Christmas I buy my daughter, who is about LL's age, and my granddaughter, who is 7, a new yearly calender/journal.
My grown daughter likes artistic ones, or one's with beautiful landscapes, etc.

My little granddaughter likes ones that just exactly like the one Lucy used in 2016--with a cartoon doggy on the cover. My grown daughter would think I lost my marbles if I gave her one like this:

[1/2]Cheshire Police undated handout picture showing the diary and a handwritten note by neonatal nurse Lucy Letby who was on trial at Manchester Crown Court charged with the murder of seven babies, in Manchester, Britain, obtained by Reuters on July 25, 2023. Cheshire Constabulary/Handout via REUTERS Acquire Licensing Rights

Factbox: Who is killer British nurse Lucy Letby?

British nurse Lucy Letby was convicted on Friday of murdering seven babies and trying to kill another six at the hospital where she worked in northwest England, making her one of the country's worst serial child killers.

www.reuters.com

 

[LadyL]

“. I've also met serial killers and they tend to be antisocial, angry, they tend to have a long criminal history of violence. Again, Lucy Letby doesn't fit that kind of motivation."

Lucy Letby: Inside the mind of a serial killer - the psychology behind healthcare murderers

Former Countess of Chester hospital nurse Lucy Letby joins GP Harold Shipman and nurse Beverley Allitt on the list of UK healthcare professional serial killers. Here, Sky News speaks to psychologists about possible motivations for such horrific crimes.

news.sky.com

were they in the medical field? cause this killer nurse Letby doesn't surprise me in the least

Elizabeth Wettlaufer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Charles Cullen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kristen Gilbert - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(this one was also called The Angel of Death by her co-workers)

Jane Toppan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[katydid23]

I get it but don’t see it myself. I can’t place someone having a tantrum with someone murdering babies as a way of venting. It’s an extreme that I cannot bring together. For all that inner explosiveness and it never really showed?

I think her inner explosiveness showed in her violent actions. At least 2 of the babies had crushed internal organs. A few had internal bleeding from the insertion of sharp instruments down their throats. Then there was the severe overfeeding which crushed the lungs and the many cases of air injections meant to cause a stroke.

In my mind, Nurse Lucy was having explosive tantrums, but quietly and in the dark, when she acted out violently and silently.

I do think she’s a bit of a madam and totally get the pouty bit. She’s my age and to think of a woman my age in court clutching a blanket and toy is a big no from me.

It was a No from you, but a big fat Yes from the judge. She was allowed the highly unusual option of taking her seat in the box before the jury entered----and was allowed to carry TWO blankies and a soft cuddle toy with her for comfort. That sounds very infantile to me. JMO

I agree I do think she was mollycoddled. think it may have harmed her credibility as well. all In all I get massive and total “me me me” vibes from her, I really do. I might have asked her to show some respect for the situation and her own image and to not do something so infantile.

really do think she harmed her credibility. Who wants a child as a NNU nurse? No one. We want adults without a doubt.

following on from the me me me vibe. I can see hr having narcissism as a trait but kept quiet about it. I can totally see spite and envy playing a role here. I would certainly say I can see those feelings as motivation for something so heinous. Such a dangerous mix, perhaps nothing more dangerous. especically in a position of care. On the flip side it could simply be she’s using the babies to get at the parents with a total absence of care for them.

I agree about the narcissism traits. I think these were overlapping conditions.
And I do think she was using the babies to get at the parents. For some reason she wanted them to feel utter devastating grief.
But she assaulted so many babies and so often, so relentlessly, I think she had to enjoy that part too. So she may have been sadistic, psychotic, sociopathic, a psychopath---who knows?

My guess is an infantile, sadistic pyschopath with underlying Munchausen by Proxy?

 

[LadyL]

I think she probably thought she'd be informally questions or brought in for discussions / interviews as opposed to her home being raided and searched. If she's a Narc she probably envisioned the police consulting with her on her opinions and ideas with regard to the usually high death rate.

She probably even had a whole load of prepared suggestions and theories to propose to them.

What I can't understand is that IIRC some of the paperwork was found on the second / third searches. Surely by that time, one would have long since burned anything?

I suppose there's only two ways to view it - she either left it on purpose to be found -or- was so arrogant she never thought it would be located.

I'm going with arrogant.

 

[LadyL]

the penalty doesn't seem to apply to WLO's like Letby but makes a good headline

'If a criminal continues to resist attending their sentencing despite a judge’s order, they will face an extra two years behind bars. This new penalty will apply in cases where the maximum sentence is life imprisonment, including serious sexual or violent crimes such as murder, rape, and grievous bodily harm with intent'

Criminals to be forced to attend sentencing in England and Wales

MoJ proposes new powers for judges, but caution raised over potentially disruptive behaviour by prisoners compelled to appear

www.theguardian.com

If they're already serving life, they could get an extra 2 years tacked on? Huh?

 

[LadyL]

It’s difficult to understand how such a twisted mind works but perhaps she had some level of conflict, maybe some part of her knew she was doing the wrong thing. Then again, it was only powerful enough for some scribbled notes, not for her to stop or plead guilty when finally caught.

But showing up to work was an attempt to continue to exert influence and control to me. In terms of how she saw it playing out, she could not help herself but keep killing children and I don’t know if she had fully appreciated if the Little Miss Innocent, I care about babies, my parents and friends think butter wouldn’t melt etc act would eventually play itself out. The attention and high from hurting children was all-important even as it massively increased the risk of detection. Just IMO.

I don't think there was any moral conflict in her head. She knew it was wrong. Her only mental struggle was how not to get caught IMO.

 

[Eloise]

Former General Attorney Robert Buckland plus head of Criminal Bar Association ( & other legal pundits whose names I can't recall now) were on TV prior to sentencing saying that it could have been played into her cell even under existing law.

Justice Goss must have had a reason not to do that.

Who knows what it was but I imagine he thought it through. ( With manipulative LL, wouldn't surprise me if she'd been making absolute scenes down in that cell.)

I feel like she was treated with kid gloves during the trial (including during the sentencing) so she could never, ever come back and appeal based on biased or bad treatment during her remand/trial period. It was smart, IMO. It also takes some ammo away from the crazies out there who are still saying she's a scapegoat - not that they're really a factor at all.

If they're already serving life, they could get an extra 2 years tacked on? Huh?

I guess if their WLO ever gets reduced on appeal they still have that extra 2 years?