UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

[Marantz4250b]

If they think they will probably get a conviction I think it’s a go. It’s such a high profile case especially now and unfortunately the degree of victims suffering in this which is staggering, I think would mean any likely conviction would be deemed in the public interest. It’s weird I’ve followed this for almost a year, the only thing that still impacts is the degree of suffering in this. It’s mind boggling.

I'm not so sure that it is.

Others have pointed out on here as to how little media attention this has actually received given the clearly staggering nature of it - it really is quite astonishing as to how many people either have never heard of it or have just heard of it in passing. The "high profile" nature of a case is not the fact which determines whether something come to trial or not, however.

The CPS have two tests to meet in deciding whether to charge or re-try a case. Those are: is there a realistic chance of conviction? and; is it in the public interest? The latter test does not simply refer to whether the public find it "interesting". It means whether it is worthwhile in all the circumstances for the public good (or words to that effect) to bring the case.

It's a balancing act. They may decide that there is a realistic chance of conviction but the cost may be immense. Say, for instance (just for the sake of demonstrating an arguent), that the cost of re-trying her is going to be £20m+ and they think they have a very good chance of conviction. That's a huge amount of money but the argument might be made that what is the point of doing it? She's already never getting out so the public safety benefit in non-existent.

It then really comes down to whether the "public interest" is served by spending all that money, using all that court time and prolonging this whole thing for several more years with all the resulting attendant stress and emotional upheaval to convict someone who is never going to be released in any event.

 

[esther43]

This is not correct - assuming you are referring to a Whole Life Order.

The vast majority of murder convictions give a chance for parole.

Every single murder conviction results in the sole sentence mandated in law being handed down - that being "imprisonment for life". There is no option in that.

When you are sentenced to life in prison you are given a minimum term before you may apply for release on "licence" (parole). These minimum terms have starting points which range from fifteen years up to a whole life order and, again, are subject to statutory guidelines.

Every murderer who is out on parole is still, technically, "imprisoned for life" but has been granted a licence to live beyond the prison walls and can be recalled to prison for contravening the terms of his/her licence. This is the same for any prisoner on parole (licence) for any conviction.

A Whole Life Order is exceedingly rare; Lucy Letby is only the second woman to receive such a sentence from the convicting court (Joanne Dennehy was the first - they are reportedly now in the same prison) and I think the first to receive a whole life order for a non-murder offence as she was handed WLO's in respect of the attempted murder convictions.

I'm also not sure whether one single guilty verdict on any of the murder charges would have resulted in a WLO for her, tbh. Had that been the case I think the sentencing would have been quite a bit more convoluted especially, for instance if she had been acquitted of all, pr perhaps all bar one, of the AM charges.

I've been quite curious as to why Letby received a whole life order whilst Alit didn't. Yet their offences were similar.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I do think they would do separate trials but the last on3 I think would contain everything they can find. From their POV they have the rest of ll life to find out exactly what has happened if anything. I was actually wondering which cases got the undecided on.

 

[esther43]

So some of the 'other' babies are from Wales. Must be in the same network and got transferred in.. 5 babies

Lucy Letby inquiry to consider experiences of Welsh patients

The neonatal nurse is the most prolific child serial killer in modern British history.

www.bbc.com

 

[katydid23]

https://x.com/mrdandonoghue/status/1699791287472566474?s=46&t=jKNNPnRnm61gSOdRLmxvPw

“Lucy Letby: On 25 September there will be hearing at Manchester Crown Court where the CPS will announce whether they intend to go for a retrial on the counts on which the jury failed to reach a verdict in the former nurse's 10 month trial”

What do y'all think will happen? I really am unsure what they will decide. I can see valid reasons either way.

If there were murders that were unresolved, I'd say go for the retrial. Those grieving families should be given a chance for some measure of justice. It must be very frustrating for the families of the unresolved cases.

But those cases were not decided for some reason and maybe they wouldn't come to a verdict even if tried again with new presentation and new jury. Putting those exhausted, devastated parents though it all again seems like a big risk.

 

[katydid23]

As sick as it is, I guess it was inevitable.
Manchester United fans chant about Hillsborough and Liverpool fans still chant about Munich.

It is sick and disgusting. I agree. But it seems weird that authorities said they were going to look at cctv and see if they can figure out who was chanting. So what happens to the many dozens who chanted 'she's one of your own! ?

Are they going to charge them with something? Arrest them, fine them? Is it against the law?

I assume they will just ban them because they can do that for any kind of disruptions or bad actions.

 

[LadyL]

I wish they could do a vast inquiry into every opportunity she would've had from the beginning of her career. If I had billions of dollars, I would pay for it. To get justice for all of the victims cause I believe there are many more IMO. Imagine the families left to just wonder for the rest of their lives.

 

[Tortoise]

I wish they could do a vast inquiry into every opportunity she would've had from the beginning of her career. If I had billions of dollars, I would pay for it. To get justice for all of the victims cause I believe there are many more IMO. Imagine the families left to just wonder for the rest of their lives.

Wish granted!

"While she awaits her sentencing hearing on Monday, Operation Hummingbird remains active with the force recently recruiting more detectives to join the team.
"I'm sure the public would expect us to look at the entire footprint of Lucy Letby's career," said Det Supt Hughes.
This includes admissions on to the neonatal unit at the Liverpool Women's Hospital while Letby was on placement there.
The families of babies who are a part of this investigation have been informed.
"From 2012 through to 2016, there were more than 4,000 admissions of babies into the neonatal units of both hospitals for us to work through," said Det Supt Hughes.
"This does not mean we are investigating all 4,000.
"It just means that we are committed to a thorough review of every admission from a medical perspective, to ensure that nothing is missed throughout the entirety of her employment as a nurse.
"Only those cases highlighted as concerning medically will be investigated further.
"We want to be confident that when we get to the end of Operation Hummingbird and say we have identified every offence if there are more."

Lucy Letby: Investigating UK's most prolific child serial killer

Detectives who closed the net around Lucy Letby tell of their dealings with the "emotionless" killer.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

I've been quite curious as to why Letby received a whole life order whilst Alit didn't. Yet their offences were similar.

Whole Life Orders were not part of the law when Allitt was convicted. The current sentencing regime for life sentences came in in about 2005, I think. Ian Huntley just missed it.

Previous to the current system the Home Secretary would set the tarrif, the time that a prisoner must seve prior to being allowed to apply for parole. That was challenged in the courts as an infringement in people's rights and was held to be contrary to the European Convention on Human Rights - rightly so, in my opinion as it is abhorrent that politicians should be involved with the criminal justice system.

Allit is almost certainly never coming out in any event, I wouldn't imagine.

 

[Marantz4250b]

What do y'all think will happen? I really am unsure what they will decide. I can see valid reasons either way.

If there were murders that were unresolved, I'd say go for the retrial. Those grieving families should be given a chance for some measure of justice. It must be very frustrating for the families of the unresolved cases.

But those cases were not decided for some reason and maybe they wouldn't come to a verdict even if tried again with new presentation and new jury. Putting those exhausted, devastated parents though it all again seems like a big risk.

I tend to agree here. Agree that unresolved murder charges may be more likely to be retried than attempted murder ones as the former is easier to prove.

I do wonder whether it is possible not just to retry but to recharge the unresolved attempted murder charges as GBH? We don't know why the AM murder charges were unresolved by the jury bit its a pretty good bet that its because they were struggling with the proof that she intended death to occur. Proving that she intended GBH is much simpler.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It is sick and disgusting. I agree. But it seems weird that authorities said they were going to look at cctv and see if they can figure out who was chanting. So what happens to the many dozens who chanted 'she's one of your own! ?

Are they going to charge them with something? Arrest them, fine them? Is it against the law?

I assume they will just ban them because they can do that for any kind of disruptions or bad actions.

There are a few things they could be charged with and there are, I think, a few laws which relate specifically to sporting events and behavior in large crowds.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I wish they could do a vast inquiry into every opportunity she would've had from the beginning of her career. If I had billions of dollars, I would pay for it. To get justice for all of the victims cause I believe there are many more IMO. Imagine the families left to just wonder for the rest of their lives.

That is essentially what Op Humming bird is now doing.

 

[RichardKimble]

https://x.com/mrdandonoghue/status/1699791287472566474?s=46&t=jKNNPnRnm61gSOdRLmxvPw

“Lucy Letby: On 25 September there will be hearing at Manchester Crown Court where the CPS will announce whether they intend to go for a retrial on the counts on which the jury failed to reach a verdict in the former nurse's 10 month trial”

Strange why a session at a crown court is needed, the issue of charges is normally resolved behind the scenes and an appearance at a magistrates follows.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Strange why a session at a crown court is needed, the issue of charges is normally resolved behind the scenes and an appearance at a magistrates follows.

This is still within the purview of the court, though, as it relates to the charges on which the jury could not reach a verdict. It's a decision on a retrial, not a recharinging. She's still technically under charge (I think) and if no application to seek a further trial is lodged then the charges will drop.

 

[katydid23]

There are a few things they could be charged with and there are, I think, a few laws which relate specifically to sporting events and behavior in large crowds.

If the crowd was chanting something violent or something racist, like when those vile morons were throwing bananas at black players, I think they should be arrested and permanently banned from the stadium.

But I wondered about the chant---if it was just 'she's one of your own" ----she was in fact from Hereford, so what law would it break to chant that? No vile language or racist, violent words...just a factual statement?

 

[Marantz4250b]

If the crowd was chanting something violent or something racist, like when those vile morons were throwing bananas at black players, I think they should be arrested and permanently banned from the stadium.

But I wondered about the chant---if it was just 'she's one of your own" ----she was in fact from Hereford, so what law would it break to chant that? No vile language or racist, violent words...just a factual statement?

I'm not sure, specifically but there will likely be something such as The Public Order Act or similar.

The CPS have a page on Football related offences and they actually use the Munich disaster as an example in it;

Football Related Offences and Football Banning Orders | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

I'm not sure what would apply to Lucy Letby chants but I'm sure something can be done about it - even if it's just the club banning those supporters.

 

[Dotta]

The chant alludes to deaths of tiny Babies as LL is a murderer.

The victims deserve RESPECT.

Not being involved in particular football wars.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

It’s a very petty, mean minded and stupid thing to do that.


im wondering if anyone knows the cases that were either hung or hg? Was wondering if anyome could give a rundown on why those cases got the results they did according to their knowledge?

im struggling to find which cases didn’t get the G.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Found them on the media thread. Two standout ones. Ie baby k and baby Q. Not actually surprised about baby K, am genuinely surprised about baby Q. baby Q was the last on her three day spree, really woul have guessed she got the g on that.

im looking at baby q med evidence. It looks to me like the there isn’t a very good string of connection between Lucy letby and the collapse by itself. It really does seem suspicious though And in accordance with patterns we have seen ie dismissive of the unit’s atmosphere “madness lol”, and dismissive of the events themselves “we’ll get through it” which after all reads “I’m not bothered at all”. we also have a nurse who stated ll wasn’t near the baby in the minutes leading up to the collapse. I feel the jury may have considered this as a tenuous link between ll and the collapse. It’s also one incident alone.

 

[esther43]

Whole Life Orders were not part of the law when Allitt was convicted. The current sentencing regime for life sentences came in in about 2005, I think. Ian Huntley just missed it.

Previous to the current system the Home Secretary would set the tarrif, the time that a prisoner must seve prior to being allowed to apply for parole. That was challenged in the courts as an infringement in people's rights and was held to be contrary to the European Convention on Human Rights - rightly so, in my opinion as it is abhorrent that politicians should be involved with the criminal justice system.

Allit is almost certainly never coming out in any event, I wouldn't imagine.

Ah Thank you for clarifying