UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

[Tortoise]

"Almost a hundred people gathered at a candlelit vigil to remember the victims of nurse Lucy Letby.

Seven candles were lit at the service to remember those who died.

An eighth candle was lit to commemorate victims who may yet be unknown.


Retired consultant Dr John Gibbs, who was one of the doctors who blew the whistle on Letby, was in attendance with other Countess of Chester Hospital staff."

Lucy Letby: Candles lit to remember nurse's victims

The nurse was jailed last month for the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of six more.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

"Each candle on the altar of the central nave represented one of the babies she was found guilty of killing after a ten month trial. Another tall candle stood alone at the side of the altar - lit to represent other babies whose deaths may yet be laid at her door."

Candlelit vigil remembers 7 babies who perished at hands of Lucy Letby

Among the congregation at Chester Cathedral were staff from the nearby Countess of Chester hospital, where killer nurse Lucy Letby carried out her sickening crimes

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[notsure]

How many data/privacy violations are there vs how many murdering nurses and doctors are there?

I'll take the chance that the nurse or doctor treating me is just a normal person over the likelihood that my most vulnerable moments are being recorded tbh.

These are just suggestions, as we're trying to think of ways security could be improved, aren't we?

What if people were given the chance to opt out of this security feature? Then nobody would have to worry about their privacy being invaded.

For me personally, deterring medical practitioners from committing heinous acts on babies and others is more important than privacy.

And nobody knows the answer to your question of how many murdering nurses and doctors there are. Too many, for sure. As well as those who are over-sedating patients to make their shift easier. We only hear about the ones that are caught.

 

[Dotta]

Besides, we have no privacy in today's world.
We are constantly being "spied on" by cctv cameras everywhere and even by our own phones.
Let's not forget that vile rapist and murderer Wayne C was caught thanks to cameras.
As the murderer of Maria Rawlings.
And many, many others.

Killers are human, they make many mistakes.
Cctv might catch them in time and save many other potential victims.

Why to make life easier for these monsters??

Besides, nobody who wanted to stop progress has ever won.

One day, we we might be treated in hospitals by robots

JMO

 

[Parker Knoll]

The camera issue is such an emotive subject. I can see both sides of it.
Personally it wouldn’t concern me as Dotta said upthread we are being spied on/observed one way or another whether that be out in the world with CCTV when we pop to the shops, ANPR when we drive to the shops, Google when we set the sat nav to the shops and our phones when we make a phone call from the shops - it’s ALL recorded.
Then on the flip side you have Letby and worryingly now possibly something similar in Birmingham. Would Letby have done this had there been CCTV in the CoC ? who knows as Mary said where there is a will there is a way and they always do find a way but I just feel we have to do SOMETHING.
We can’t just trot out the lessons will be learned BS this time.

 

[Tortoise]

"Staff from the Countess of Chester Hospital, where the infants died, including consultants Dr John Gibbs and Dr Ravi Jayaram, who gave evidence against Letby during the ten-month trial, were among the congregation. Chester Labour MP Samantha Dixon also attended.

Several worshippers fought back tears or dabbed their eyes as the candles were lit while the cathedral choir sang.

[...]

Following the 40-minute service, the Bishop said: 'It is really important we gather at a time when people are despairing, when they don't know where to turn, when there is anger, confusion and grief because the church exists to hold those kind of things, to introduce some kind of hope.

'It was really hard but it's right that it is really hard, we are mourning the loss of babies, but it was also really good to be together. The moment of lighting candles in the middle of the service I could barely look up, it was just beautifully poignant.'"

Candlelight vigil is held for serial child killer Lucy Letby's victims

Almost 100 people attended the Service of Lament, Prayer and Hope, led by Dean Tim Stratford.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

I also lit a candle in my local Church on Sunday.
It signified my prayer for the innocent lives taken so cruelly.
Burning a votive candle for the Babies meant a lot to me.

The light is a symbol of my prayer, offered in Faith.

Rest in Peace Sweet Little Angels.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The camera issue is such an emotive subject. I can see both sides of it.
Personally it wouldn’t concern me as Dotta said upthread we are being spied on/observed one way or another whether that be out in the world with CCTV when we pop to the shops, ANPR when we drive to the shops, Google when we set the sat nav to the shops and our phones when we make a phone call from the shops - it’s ALL recorded.
Then on the flip side you have Letby and worryingly now possibly something similar in Birmingham. Would Letby have done this had there been CCTV in the CoC ? who knows as Mary said where there is a will there is a way and they always do find a way but I just feel we have to do SOMETHING.
We can’t just trot out the lessons will be learned BS this time.

Slightly different topic but in the USA where there's a far bigger 'claim culture' than the UK - by which I mean incomparable - people such as therapists and psychiatrists record all their sessions, at very least audio recording. They even supply the patient / client a copy if wanted so it can help them to listen back to the interaction. For accountability and safety.

Well ... here in the UK where therapists are not at all regulated (and any regulatory bodies are just a pretence) and NHS psychiatrists are erm... often bonkers IMO and downright criminal in some instances... do you think you can get them them to agree to recording a session? No chance. Not even for their own personal safety.

 

[Tortoise]

Episode 61, Another Judge

www.mailplus.co.uk

Episode 61, Another Judge​

In this episode Caroline and Liz chat to expert legal commentator, Joshua Rozenberg KC, who explains just why Lady Justice Thirlwall is the perfect judge to chair the public inquiry into Lucy Letby’s crimes, and Tamlin Bolton, a senior lawyer with Switalskis Solicitors, who is representing several of the victims’ families.

Episode 62, The court watchers - The Mail

www.mailplus.co.uk

Episode 62, The court watchers​

In this episode Caroline and Liz bring together people from the public gallery who followed this trial for a chat about how this case has affected them. And we’ll share some of last night’s candlelit vigil for the babies at Chester Cathedral.

 

[Lincoln34]

Really? Even if it meant you were safer? I'm the most fiercely private person you could meet, but when I'm in a hospital bed, with the burps, catheterisations, etc. that you mention (and I've experienced all that), I don't actually care who witnesses it.

Do you think there is privacy on a hospital ward at the moment? Last time I was an inpatient, any person could wander in off the street.

But even if they didn't have the bedside cameras, bodycams on nurses/paramedics are already in use in some places. Implementing those as standard for all patient/health worker interaction seems like a good idea as a safety measure.

It seems like craziness to trust people not to harm us just because they're wearing medical uniforms.

Agree. With my c- section the midwives left me for way beyond 4 hour pain relief several times and I was trying to establish breastfeeding - which I did but no thanks to them tbh.I doubt they would have done that if on camera. The patient could always be given the option to turn off cameras. With my second the same thing happened. However I had codeine and paracetamol stashed under mattress!

 

[Marantz4250b]

The camera issue is such an emotive subject. I can see both sides of it.
Personally it wouldn’t concern me as Dotta said upthread we are being spied on/observed one way or another whether that be out in the world with CCTV when we pop to the shops, ANPR when we drive to the shops, Google when we set the sat nav to the shops and our phones when we make a phone call from the shops - it’s ALL recorded.
Then on the flip side you have Letby and worryingly now possibly something similar in Birmingham. Would Letby have done this had there been CCTV in the CoC ? who knows as Mary said where there is a will there is a way and they always do find a way but I just feel we have to do SOMETHING.
We can’t just trot out the lessons will be learned BS this time.

I get your points here and I tend to flip between it being a good thing and it not being. The expense would be immense, that's for certain.

There are lots of very good arguments for doing it but, ultimately, stopping serial killers probably isn't one of them. I do not for one minute believe that it would have stopped Lucy Letby. She would always have found a way to do it. Perhaps it would have altered her methodology and maybe it would have changed the specific victims but I don't think the end result would have been much different.

I think that is especially true as time went on because I get the feeling that she got to a point where she was completely out of control and was throwing all caution to the wind. I think she came to believe that she was invincible and if that's how she was thinking then not even hundreds of cameras would have dissuaded her.

The bottom line is that she wasn't stopped earlier because management allowed her to continue despite senior clinicians begging them to do something. You are right that what we are going to be fed is "lessons will be learned" which, of course, they won't be.

Until the law is changed so that gross incompetence by mangers which leads to death or serious injury can result in criminal prosecution and disbarment then we will still have a culture of no one really caring what happens.

 

[notsure]

Agree. With my c- section the midwives left me for way beyond 4 hour pain relief several times and I was trying to establish breastfeeding - which I did but no thanks to them tbh.I doubt they would have done that if on camera. The patient could always be given the option to turn off cameras. With my second the same thing happened. However I had codeine and paracetamol stashed under mattress!

Omg, sorry to hear about your experience

 

[Kittybunny]

Sooooo.... I want to circle back to a very important issue, and we need @Tortoise for this complex matter.

Given that the first verdicts actually were read DAYS before they were officially announced, who actually won the contest on length of jury deliberation?!?!

Inquiring minds want to know, haha.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Sooooo.... I want to circle back to a very important issue, and we need @Tortoise for this complex matter.

Given that the first verdicts actually were read DAYS before they were officially announced, who actually won the contest on length of jury deliberation?!?!

Inquiring minds want to know, haha.

i thought I missed it.

 

[Eloise]

Besides, we have no privacy in today's world.
We are constantly being "spied on" by cctv cameras everywhere and even by our own phones.
Let's not forget that vile rapist and murderer Wayne C was caught thanks to cameras.
As the murderer of Maria Rawlings.
And many, many others.

Killers are human, they make many mistakes.
Cctv might catch them in time and save many other potential victims.

Why to make life easier for these monsters??

Besides, nobody who wanted to stop progress has ever won.

One day, we we might be treated in hospitals by robots

JMO

There is a huge difference from CCTV on the street or on your own phone where you can choose where in your house it goes, and CCTV in a hospital room where there would be images of you at times possibly any one of or more of these:

naked - and not just naked, but with genitalia fully exposed depending on procedure
vomiting
pooping
uncontrollably farting post-abdo surgery (assuming there's sound, which isn't inevitable but it is possible)
and just generally being very vulnerable and at your worst.

Its a very hard sell to get people to want any of this on film.

As for robots its pretty unlikely in any of our lifetimes that robots that were physically capable of doing all the very fine motor tasks nurses do combined with the programming of everything a nurse knows AND the ability to empathise as well (And I'm not talking out my wazoo, my partner works in automation/robotics/AI and we're well off that, no matter what breathless news stories might make you want to believe). Even if they could design a robot capable of doing caring jobs, the psychology of being cared for by a robot vs a person was determined to be undesirable (and actually very destructive to development of babies and young children) decades ago. Its pretty irrelevant to this discussion anyway.

 

[Tortoise]

Sooooo.... I want to circle back to a very important issue, and we need @Tortoise for this complex matter.

Given that the first verdicts actually were read DAYS before they were officially announced, who actually won the contest on length of jury deliberation?!?!

Inquiring minds want to know, haha.

Haha, you asked for it!

For the first verdicts for babies F & L at 2pm on 8th Aug - that would be 59h 40m - the winner was

58h - @Jw192 (backed by @Sarahlou and @Tortoise )


For the second group of verdicts for babies C, I, M, N, O & P, at 1pm on 11th Aug - that would be 69h 55m - the winner was

70h - @bobbymkii (backed by @Dotta and @marynnu )


For the third group of verdicts for babies A, B, D, E & G at 2pm on 16th Aug - that would be 80h 35m - the winner was

80h - @V347 (backed by @crystalline and @Jw192 )



And V347 won the overall deliberations predictions because no one else was left in the running after 15th Aug.

Commiserations go to

75h - @CS2C (backed by @Kittybunny , @DianaWW , @Diddly1 and @Parker Knoll )

 

[Tortoise]

i thought I missed it.

I haven't forgotten I said I would put together all of LL's falsified notes. It's coming very soon, I've just been distracted by the good weather.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I haven't forgotten I said I would put together all of LL's falsified notes. It's coming very soon, I've just been distracted by the good weather.

No rush at all, I know your busy and we have as much time as herself.

 

[notsure]

More news about what goes on in our hospitals:

Female surgeons sexually assaulted while operating

Trainees are being abused by senior male surgeons, a major analysis given to the BBC reveals.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

There is a huge difference from CCTV on the street or on your own phone where you can choose where in your house it goes, and CCTV in a hospital room where there would be images of you at times possibly any one of or more of these:

naked - and not just naked, but with genitalia fully exposed depending on procedure
vomiting
pooping
uncontrollably farting post-abdo surgery (assuming there's sound, which isn't inevitable but it is possible)
and just generally being very vulnerable and at your worst.

Its a very hard sell to get people to want any of this on film.

As for robots its pretty unlikely in any of our lifetimes that robots that were physically capable of doing all the very fine motor tasks nurses do combined with the programming of everything a nurse knows AND the ability to empathise as well (And I'm not talking out my wazoo, my partner works in automation/robotics/AI and we're well off that, no matter what breathless news stories might make you want to believe). Even if they could design a robot capable of doing caring jobs, the psychology of being cared for by a robot vs a person was determined to be undesirable (and actually very destructive to development of babies and young children) decades ago. Its pretty irrelevant to this discussion anyway.

Re robots
It was a joke hahaha