UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

[Tortoise]

Episode 64, Over to you… - The Mail

www.mailplus.co.uk

Episode 64, Over to you…​

In this episode, Caroline and Liz sign off for the time being. So they’re handing over to you and will try to answer some of the questions you’ve been asking throughout the trial. Many of these questions couldn't be addressed earlier due to legal restrictions, and they still can’t answer everything, but they’ll shed some light on some of the things you’ve wanted to know.

 

[Anxala]

I think we can see where this is going; my prediction is that she isn't going to serve her time in a prison. She'll be in somewhere like Rampton.

Although still a prison, surely, in the sense that she'll be there for the rest of her life?

Wherever she's housed, she's never going to see light of good day again.

That's still prison, isn't it?

 

[Marantz4250b]

So
She didn't agree earlier, but
surprise surprise
She graciously has agreed now

When the ground is "burning beneath her feet".

This criminal is playing everybody around her.
She is the star in her own sick drama.
And all others are props.

PS
I bet her family have noticed her weird behaviour since childhood.

JMO

I don't think that there's any evidence that she's agreed to be assessed. She's a convicted murderer now and will be in the care of the state for a very long time so the prison service will be assessing her in order to plan how to deal with her.

In relation to people noticing her "weird" behavior; everything we know about her, especially in the light of CS2C's latest video, suggests that she never outwardly presented as particularly weird or unusual at all. She comes over as a perfectly normal young woman. Other than being a serial murderer, obvs.

 

[Sweeper2000]

she’s not a complete liar, the flowers in cockington were lovely. However I am 100% not saying that gives a glimmer of hope. I think most have got her down now, liar and more. The loo rolls did sound like a tactic. people were right and correct from the start. Fair judgement.

I don't think that there's any evidence that she's agreed to be assessed. She's a convicted murderer now and will be in the care of the state for a very long time so the prison service will be assessing her in order to plan how to deal with her.

In relation to people noticing her "weird" behavior; everything we know about her, especially in the light of CS2C's latest video, suggests that she never outwardly presented as particularly weird or unusual at all. She comes over as a perfectly normal young woman. Other than being a serial murderer, obvs.

agreed on that, in fact I think her history is a particularly stand out part of this case as a whole. No prior indication which makes me think it might just be munchausen but unlike allitt she seems very high functioning, I wonder if she hadn’t of had the whole “nice Lucy” act down the management would have acted sooner?

 

[Dotta]

she’s not a complete liar, the flowers in cockington were lovely.

Really?
Have you taken a picture for WS friends?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Really?
Have you taken a picture for WS friends?

I got one plant I’ve never seen before but would guess is a shrub lonicera (honeysuckle) or a relative of. The file is too big says ws.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Although still a prison, surely, in the sense that she'll be there for the rest of her life?

Wherever she's housed, she's never going to see light of good day again.

That's still prison, isn't it?

Well, it's incarcerated but a secure hospital like Rampton or Broadmoor isn't a prison in the technical sense. The daily regime is completely different as well.

 

[LadyL]

Rare glimpse inside Rampton Hospital - BBC News

The BBC East Midlands' Inside Out is allowed in to film life at Rampton Hospital, a secure facility housing some of the UK's most violent criminals.

www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org

!!!
More than 2,000 staff look after the 326 patients at a cost of £100m a year.
!!!

 

[Kemug]

Far out-after the longest trial and jury deliberation, LL was finally found guilty. I turned away, attended to some real life stuff, and now here I am, thirty five pages behind!

Well, that will teach you to desert us! How dare you try to have a real life, when the rest of us are trapped here forever?!!

 

[Kemug]

Although still a prison, surely, in the sense that she'll be there for the rest of her life?

Wherever she's housed, she's never going to see light of good day again.

That's still prison, isn't it?

Well, I sure hope so!

 

[katydid23]

So did John Gibbs typically do a lot of shifts & nights or it's just a coincidence that she attacks a lot of babies when he's on rota? 7 ( or 8 if you count the multiples for baby 0) Did we hear anything notable about their relationship? Frostier or resentments?

I think he liked her a lot at first. Said he thought she was too nice to be a suspect initially.

and other than a ' spree' in Sept & June, LL preferred to attack when she was not the designated nurse
( Tortoise's chart, previous page)

10 incidents=with designated babies
4 murders/6 assaults

12 incidents=with non-designated
3 murders/9 assaults

Numbers look nearly even. I don't think she cared either way, maybe?

 

[katydid23]

Thank you for this thoughtful response, I’m glad you liked the video

I agree with your perception about her lying.

I actually think duper’s delight was one of her two primary driving forces, along with power and control. There’s a 10% minority of Munchausens whose motivation is not sympathy, but to outsmart doctors, and I think LL fits this.

What personality disorder is associated with Munchausen syndrome?

One theory is that people with Munchausen's syndrome have an anti-social personality disorder which causes them to take pleasure in manipulating and deceiving doctors.

May 3, 2023

Munchausen's syndrome - NHS inform​

She is not anywhere near as clever as she superficially appears (she actually seemed dim in some ways), so tricking people is the easiest way for her to feel mentally superior.

I think some students can do very well in high school just by doing the assignments and listening and following instructions. But when they go on to higher learning, they often feel insecure because everyone else there are also good students who are intelligent. So they don't stand out anymore and may feel insecure.

Putting one over on the staff and fooling the doctors would be a good way for her to start feeling mentally superior, once again.

I think she got a huge thrill from acts of deceiving people, and no one knowing who she really is as a person makes her feel powerful and in control. Convincing everyone she’s nice, while harming babies and their parents in the most twisted, sadistic ways imaginable.

Agreed. If she does have a form of Munchausen with Anti-social PD she may like to purposely make others angry or upset and manipulate others or treat them harshly with cruel indifference. JMO

 

[katydid23]

Could the Lucy Letby murders be a form of Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy? An attention seeking form of behavior by a healthcare worker? I am mentioning it since I I am uncertain if it has been discussed previously.

That's what I think she has, combined with other mental health disorders. JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

I think he liked her a lot at first. Said he thought she was too nice to be a suspect initially.

10 incidents=with designated babies
4 murders/6 assaults

12 incidents=with non-designated
3 murders/9 assaults

Numbers look nearly even. I don't think she cared either way, maybe?

thanks. very useful re her MO ( eliminating what isn't a factor)

when you were looking at patterns Katy, did you spot whether there was any protection of her 2 best pals at all? ( I mean avoiding attacking babies who were under designated or temp care of the two nurses she was very close to?) Or is that another non-factor and LL would be happy to implicate even her own ' little CoC family'

 

[cottonweaver]

That's what I think she has, combined with other mental health disorders. JMO

unrelated to Munchausens or MbP, but re preoccupation with own health that ' Nurse X has got conjunctivitis, I hope I don't catch it' stood out too.

You're a nurse. Just wash your hands and don't touch your eyes Lucy. (Or is she just worried about having to have sickness absence)

will try find link for it. might have been text. text to her mum

ETA - not mum, it's a colleague. Maybe same colleague in bold? Hard to be sure if reporting is accurate. If same colleague, it's that same double-dealing trait which can be seen in other texts

'Letby messages a colleague about the unit being a "hive of activity" on February 16 in preparation for a visit from "the big bods", and there is a discussion on the possible of delivery of Child K.

Letby mentions one colleague had suspected conjuctivits, but had still come into work, and adds "Hope I haven't caught anything".

Said colleague had also not "done anything but moan" that day, Letby says.

Letby messages the ill colleague saying she hopes that colleague is felling better soon. The colleague responds she was felling better after a day of bed rest, and thanks Letby for her message.'

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Feb 16 text context. 3 days after she's attacked baby J and one day prior to next baby being transferred to NNU, a baby whom LL knew would be coming into NNU due to antenatal decisions on maternity unit

 

[katydid23]

unrelated to Munchausens or MbP, but re preoccupation with own health that ' Nurse X has got conjunctivitis, I hope I don't catch it' stood out too.

Interesting that you mention that because 'preoccupation w/one's own health' is often a precursor to Munchausen by proxy.

Munchausen is often seen in one's childhood before it turns into Munchausen By Proxy in later years.

You're a nurse. Just wash your hands and don't touch your eyes Lucy. (Or is she just worried about having to have sickness absence)

will try find link for it. might have been text. text to her mum

ETA - not mum, it's a colleague. Maybe same colleague in bold? If so, it's that same double-dealing trait which can be seen in other texts

'Letby messages a colleague about the unit being a "hive of activity" on February 16 in preparation for a visit from "the big bods", and there is a discussion on the possible of delivery of Child K.

Letby mentions one colleague had suspected conjuctivits, but had still come into work, and adds "Hope I haven't caught anything".

Said colleague had also not "done anything but moan" that day, Letby says.

Letby messages the ill colleague saying she hopes that colleague is felling better soon. The colleague responds she was felling better after a day of bed rest, and thanks Letby for her message.'

This portion shows how phoney she can be---complains about her whiny colleague to one friend, then texts the colleAgue to say 'hope you are feeling better...'

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Feb 16 text context. 3 days after she's attacked baby J and one day prior to next baby being transferred to NNU, a baby whom LL knew would be coming into NNU due to antenatal decisions on maternity unit

Causes of MBPS​

MBPS is a psychiatric condition. In some cases, the perpetrators were themselves abused, physically and/or and sexually, as children.
They may have come from families in which being sick was a way to get love.

The parent's or caregiver's own personal needs overcome his or her ability to see the child as a person with feelings and rights, possibly because the parent or caregiver may have grown up being treated like he or she wasn't a person with rights or feelings.

In rare cases, MBPS is not caused by a parent or family member, but by a medical professional (such as a nurse or doctor), who induces illness in a child who is hospitalized for other reasons.

https://www.childrensmn.org/educationmaterials/parents/article/8107/munchausen-by-proxy-syndrome/

 

[Dotta]

unrelated to Munchausens or MbP, but re preoccupation with own health that ' Nurse X has got conjunctivitis, I hope I don't catch it' stood out too.

You're a nurse. Just wash your hands and don't touch your eyes Lucy. (Or is she just worried about having to have sickness absence)

will try find link for it. might have been text. text to her mum

ETA - not mum, it's a colleague. Maybe same colleague in bold? Hard to be sure if reporting is accurate. If same colleague, it's that same double-dealing trait which can be seen in other texts

'Letby messages a colleague about the unit being a "hive of activity" on February 16 in preparation for a visit from "the big bods", and there is a discussion on the possible of delivery of Child K.

Letby mentions one colleague had suspected conjuctivits, but had still come into work, and adds "Hope I haven't caught anything".

Said colleague had also not "done anything but moan" that day, Letby says.

Letby messages the ill colleague saying she hopes that colleague is felling better soon. The colleague responds she was felling better after a day of bed rest, and thanks Letby for her message.'

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Feb 16 text context. 3 days after she's attacked baby J and one day prior to next baby being transferred to NNU, a baby whom LL knew would be coming into NNU due to antenatal decisions on maternity unit

Re a sick colleague

As I wrote in some previous threads, in my place of work (school) we mustn't come if ill.
We march to the doctor's haha
And get sick leave.

We mustn't infect students and staff.
I think it is especially important in hospital setting working with vulnerable patients.

If you are sick, stay at home!
Respect others

JMO

 

[marynnu]

Re a sick colleague

As I wrote in some previous threads, in my place of work (school) we mustn't come if ill.
We march to the doctor's haha
And get sick leave.

We mustn't infect students and staff.
I think it is especially important in hospital setting working with vulnerable patients.

If you are sick, stay at home!
Respect others

JMO

Healthcare staff don't go off sick just because they're a bit ill. People drag themselves in because they can't easily be replaced.

 

[Dotta]

Healthcare staff don't go off sick just because they're a bit ill. People drag themselves in because they can't easily be replaced.

I remember your answer from previous thread.
It was exactly word for word the same

 

[cottonweaver]

I remember your answer from previous thread.
It was exactly word for word the same

I can't speak to it like Mary can - I have no first-hand NHS knowledge - but over here we have massive & longstanding staff shortages in NHS
( LL always being available for extra shift & nights must have been one factor in why her immediate managers valued her. I bet she rarely had a day off apart from her entitlement to holiday leave)

PS i have also lived in more enlightened countries where it's not the done thing to risk your clients' health ( as well as being viewed as counter-productivity in longer term) but imo that's not British work culture in under-pressure, over-stretched public services