UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #35

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"Dr Shoo Lee, an academic who researched the phenomenon of air embolus in babies in 1989, gave evidence to the court of appeal on behalf of the defence, telling judges that the “only sign” of it was of pink blood vessels “superimposed” on a pink or blue body"

The defence had an expert on AE but only for this trial? How comes he came so late, present only in the appeal?

Anyone care to gauge why lucy letby showed emotion when the clip of Dr j talking about catching her was shown? I would guess its to do with her almost being forced to acknowledge that she was indeed caught in the act. Maybe the denial is actually a clinical thing in this one? Makes sense to me.

"It was clear that Letby had been shielded in prison from the full blaze of publicity that followed her convictions when, on day five, she became tearful as an ITV News interview with Jayaram was played in court. In the seconds-long clip, the doctor said walking in on Letby with Baby K was “etched in my nightmares for ever”. At this, she welled up, her only flicker of emotion throughout."
From the article:


"Letby’s only memory of Baby K, she said, was that she was so small – born at 25 weeks’ gestation – and it was “unusual” for the Countess to take such babies. The infant was on the neonatal unit for only half a day, and Letby was never her designated nurse."


Maybe her twisted justification in this case and part of her MO to pick babies that were in medical situations that death could be explained was Baby K's very premature age. The defence highlighting the fact of how premature Baby K was and that the hospital did not usually take babies that premature and shift blame to the hospital demonstrates that.
 
From the article:


"Letby’s only memory of Baby K, she said, was that she was so small – born at 25 weeks’ gestation – and it was “unusual” for the Countess to take such babies. The infant was on the neonatal unit for only half a day, and Letby was never her designated nurse."


Maybe her twisted justification in this case and part of her MO to pick babies that were in medical situations that death could be explained was Baby K's very premature age. The defence highlighting the fact of how premature Baby K was and that the hospital did not usually take babies that premature and shift blame to the hospital demonstrates that.
Yeh I can't remember exactly but a quick glimpse of the babies med histories say only baby O was a perfectly healthy baby. Most others seem premature at least but that doesn't mean "unlikely to survive" or that what happened to them could be explained by natural causes. Would seem she targeted those in a compromised condition.

Honestly i think Mr Myers was working with what was there which too often seemed like straws he exaggerated but fair play to him, he did his job and as asked to the best he could. Remember he said "massive hospital failings" and to bolster that I think he came up with "staff shortages", A blocked drain and the events of Baby K and family. To me Baby K seemed like good practice mostly, no beds at a tier 3 hospital so born in a tier 2 and tier 2 have a spillover dynamic in place. The staff are trained to deal with very premature babies in the event that there is no other option. They were equipped, trained and I believe capable of dealing with 25 weekers although it isn't ideal.

I think we have seen enough evidence that muddying the waters was a part of her approach for example not signing med notes but getting others to do it, targeting other nurses babies as a way of distancing herself, exaggeration of clinical condition in testimony and understating of actual health of the baby. These would all muddy the waters and cast doubt on the babies health and were presumably done to create a greater potential that it would be put down to Ill health.

That actually fits with what people are saying about her belief that she could outsmart the police and investigation. Makes that more likely imo. Well Lucy Letby where did your genius criminal mind get ya? Ey? Ey? I bet u ain't so flushed with self flattery now? ey? Ey? Ahhh I'm kidding u a real clever clogs.
 
I still really feel killing or hurting was not her prime motivation...i think killing them served a purpose.I feel she used those little babies as a tool to get what she wants ...attention, admiration or to take it out on people she had a grudge with.
Maybe it was not her prime motivation. But what kind of person would use the torturous deaths of newborn babies as tools for getting attention or admiration?

Only a truly heartless psychopath, IMO.
 
I listened to the latest podcast yesterday and I was stunned to be perfectly honest with Myers.
Why on earth was Shoo Lee put forward as a witness when he hadn’t seen the medical records of any of the babies in this case ?
I do not understand how any Counsel especially of his calibre would even think that was acceptable.
I’m staggered, had he completely lost the plot at this stage ?
 
I listened to the latest podcast yesterday and I was stunned to be perfectly honest with Myers.
Why on earth was Shoo Lee put forward as a witness when he hadn’t seen the medical records of any of the babies in this case ?
I do not understand how any Counsel especially of his calibre would even think that was acceptable.
I’m staggered, had he completely lost the plot at this stage ?
Nah was myers talking Dr Lee through the med files but not actually letting him see them, then Dr Lee gave his account to myers who then tried to get him admitted as a expert. Think mr myers jumped at Dr Lee saying the account given doesn't prove AE. Dr Lee probably didn't even know about the rather extensive line of med experts presented by the prosecution which if I am correct would have made Dr Lee think much more seriously about it.
 
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As far as I’m concerned, the biggest way she is different is the contortions people go through to rationalize how she must be special. She’s not like other serial killers, she must have purer motives, everyone else around her is equally to blame for what she did…what other perpetrator of multiple murders gets this level of benefit of the doubt? The closest I can think of is Chris Watts, who through being completely beige has also managed to convince people to manufacture excuses for his baby killing.
I disagree with this. No one is contorting logic to get to these conclusions, no one is trying to convince anyone that she isn't 100% culpable or that her motives were somehow "purer" than any other serial killer! No one is giving her any benefit of doubt, certainly not me.

The fact remains that she is most certainly different from the vast majority of serial killers. Even the few experts who have got their faces on the TV to speak about her have said that. She is literally nothing like anyone I can think of; she had an entirely normal past life as far as we can see, she was sociable, popular and was liked by people. There doesn't seem to be anyone, anywhere who has expressed a bad word about her. She's intelligent, well educated and seemed be extremely hard working and driven.

Sure, people bring up the fact that various serial killers had "normal" elements to their lives but there are always the people who come out and say how weird, strange they were or how they never socialised much or had strange desires, etc. Bundy didn't manage to kill as many as he tried to because several women were creeped out by him; Shipman was not universally liked as many people like to promote as several people have come out and said he was a strange semi-loner who didn't really get on with people - let's also not forget he was a Heroin addict for many years and should probably have been struck off! Bev Allitt was, and is still is, a complete lunatic who had a history of violence, abuse and being barred from pubs due be being basically insane and unhinged.

Literally the only people who have ever expressed reservations about her, that we know of, are the group of doctors who figured out what she was up to and that was only because they were intimately involved with the ward and recognised that something was going on.

Lucy Letby was initially arrested all the way back in 2018. In all that time there doesn't seem to be a single person, anywhere, who has expressed a bad word about her, her behavior or her upbringing at all. If you don't believe me just do a Google search - you won't find anyone. When I was looking I found one single lunatic on FB who claimed to have lived with her for a few years and spun some insane story about having to move to the other end of the country to get away from her as she was ruining his life with her abusive, controlling behavior. That was clearly absolute sh**e as she obviously, never lived with a fat, tattooed middle-aged bloke with an obvious penchant for massive quantities of Oranjeboom of an evening!

The only thing that seems a tad unusual about her is that she never seems to have had a boyfriend/girlfriend/significant other that anyone can determine. I don't know too many reasonably attractive young women in that situation, tbh, but maybe it's just that no one has come forward and fessed up to it? She would definitely have had guys after her, I can state that with 100% certainty.

As I've mentioned previously, I get the impression that she maybe has some psychological hang-ups about intimate relationships. I'm not at all convinced that there was anything sexual going on with Doctor Choc. I think she fantasised about him (and vice-versa) but, ultimately, I think their "friendship" continued because she saw him as "safe" because he was married with kids and probably wouldn't cheat.

As I say, I think she is very different from most other killers. Probably all of them, tbh.
 
The only thing that seems a tad unusual about her is that she never seems to have had a boyfriend/girlfriend/significant other that anyone can determine. I don't know too many reasonably attractive young women in that situation, tbh, but maybe it's just that no one has come forward and fessed up to it? She would definitely have had guys after her, I can state that with 100% certainty.
Wasn’t she a member of a church (along with her parents) and if so, perhaps having a boyfriend / girlfriend was frowned upon within that particular church?? I don’t know obvs but that might explain her lack of partner previously. I also wonder if the doctor did the chasing rather than the other way round (not to say she wasn’t flattered by that though and possibly played up to it)
 
Wasn’t she a member of a church (along with her parents) and if so, perhaps having a boyfriend / girlfriend was frowned upon within that particular church?? I don’t know obvs but that might explain her lack of partner previously. I also wonder if the doctor did the chasing rather than the other way round (not to say she wasn’t flattered by that though and possibly played up to it)
Yes, there was some strange evangelical church in her family background. This one, I think;


Not sure what their views are regarding that type of thing but they seem like a kinda weird outfit - then again, all religion seems weird to me!
 
New podcast from the mail. Seems like good journalism to me. The presenters at one point seem like they are explaining to the folks who think the coverage has been biased. I never thought that, they should be proud and don't worry about the naysayers. They probably say she isn't guilty as well. Especially off of the back of that new York article. I read that and it was far too generic almost excluding the very particular details of this case. Should NOT be allowed to influence anyone on this case.


It also gives an account of her parting words. "She lifted her arms and said I'm innocent and was quite resigned almost desperately".

Wasn't teary then. Has expressed nothing towards any of the families throughout her trials has she? I don't think that's a normal reaction tbh. I imoo would say that I think that is remarkable really that's a very very long time to be around people in that circumstance and to not address them at all. I have not heard of even one look to the families.

Chris Watts tried harder than that and "cried". The total s bag.
 
Yip is certainly seen as something unusual by many.
This is a quote from a article about the sentencing.

"The mother of Baby K addressed Letby directly as she read out a victim impact statement to the packed courtroom where she has had to sit through two trials listening to the harrowing details of her daughter’s death".

Mr Goss noticed her output in these situations, his words

“coldly denied any responsibility for wrongdoing”.

This is a real world rather than relayed account of her reactions to events. It's a display very similar imo to the way she reacted on the unit to extremely emotionally pressing events. So detached its bizarre. Its like the way Dr j said she was when alone with baby k. The "not leaving alive" comments, the "put him in here" comments and the way the mother of Baby E said she was when poor baby E mom came down to feed. Other similar events as well. That really is noticeable. Weird how she doesn't even try to display normal human emotions.

"She listened without reaction to the victim impact statement and Mr Goss’s sentencing remarks."


I personally find some things about her remarkable. The outward appearance of normality except in those instances of unusual reactions, this weird cold detached lack of reflection towards the victims both in court and out and the abhorrent nature of her crimes.

In Mr Goss words

"Mr Goss said she had “acted in a way that was completely contrary to the normal human instincts of nurturing and caring for babies".
 
Yip that's definitely well said an well put. I can see it definitely.

I'm very much caught up on the fact that it is as unthinkable to me that someone who had murdered babies and didn't want to get caught would keep those handover notes though in those circumstances. You not see that potential in her actions? Gets back from ibiza and immediately goes on one? But doesn't want to get caught?

Maybe getting caught or not caught was part of the thrill?
Yes, perhaps addicted to gambling with not only babies' lives, but also her own.
 
And this is why I'm incredibly interested in her earlier life story. There must be something back there that we don't know about, which very few people know about. Every single serial killer I can think of has got something disturbing in their back-story yet Lucy Letby seems to have absolutely nothing.

I don't believe that but, if it's true, it makes her absolutely unique, imo.
Yes, I agree that there must have been something, people don't just wake up one day and say "I think I'll become a serial killer, it might be fun".
 
I reckon there's probably something in her past that hints at her being twisted. Maybe something only her parents know/have witnessed though, so very unlikely we'll ever hear about it.
I think she'll say something in a decade or two. Some ridiculous story or other. That way it will be pretty much impossible to prove one way or the other as fewer people will be around to counter or confirm it. As I mentioned a few days back, I think I could have a pretty good stab at what that might be but it's not something I'm going to say publicly.
 
I think she'll say something in a decade or two. Some ridiculous story or other. That way it will be pretty much impossible to prove one way or the other as fewer people will be around to counter or confirm it. As I mentioned a few days back, I think I could have a pretty good stab at what that might be but it's not something I'm going to say publicly.
Just say it. Many and much strangeness has been postulated before now.
 
I think she'll say something in a decade or two. Some ridiculous story or other.

Why in a decade or two when she could have used it during her trials? A ridiculous story might have been better -- for her -- than no real explanation for what else was happening to the babies. (Don't get me wrong; I'm glad she didn't come up with something silly, though.)

It does occur to me she might do an interview years from now for the attention, compensation (?), etc.
 
Or maybe she will write a book? Perhaps when she realises that people are starting to forget about her.
 

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