UK UK - Penny Bell, 43, Ealing, London, 6 June 1991

[Tortoise]

So Hillingdon Underground station is 9 minutes from her home on the route to the leisure centre: Google Maps

 

[SBops]

And imagine an employee telling a nine year old child that her father had had a long term homosexual relationship!!!

 

[davidt]

A couple of other things about the car park. If the killer had already left a “getaway” care there he’d have no way of knowing if he could park anywhere near it when he returned in Penny’s car. If he couldn’t what would he have done? If it was premeditated why choose such a public and busy place?

I guess it’s pure speculation whether the car park was specifically chosen in advance or chosen on the spur of the moment.

 

[CSIAngus]

I’ve not seen anything describing the murder weapon as such. 50 stab wounds is an awful lot and perhaps suggests a smaller instrument being used? If it was fully premeditated you’d have thought the killer would be more prepared. The fact there were 50 wounds also suggests frenzy and loss of control rather than a cold premeditated attack.

If it was one killer with two cars which I considered, he presumably was able to drive away in one and later retrieve the other one.

It could be both premeditated and frenzy. The intention was to end life not to injure, and an inexperienced murderer might over do it in order to be certain, hence the second go from the driver's side.

 

[Tortoise]

Why was her window down for him to stab her through? She could have shouted if it was open before that, instead of miming for help. I would have thought he'd have just opened the driver's door to stab her.

 

[CSIAngus]

A couple of other things about the car park. If the killer had already left a “getaway” care there he’d have no way of knowing if he could park anywhere near it when he returned in Penny’s car. If he couldn’t what would he have done? If it was premeditated why choose such a public and busy place?

I guess it’s pure speculation whether the car park was specifically chosen in advance or chosen on the spur of the moment.

In a busy, public place people don't notice. More likely to stand out in a less busy place.

 

[davidt]

In a busy, public place people don't notice. More likely to stand out in a less busy place.

Possibly but I’d have thought if it was planned it’s more likely to do it in as secluded spot as possible. I mean this was a sustained attack not a quick killing.

 

[davidt]

Has there ever been any report as to what Penny was wearing? Since she was running late for an appointment it might be relevant to know if she was dressed business smart, or casual. In 1991 it was still the norm to 'dress up' for the office or to meet clients. I think a lot could be gleaned from her attire. If it was say a wallpaper salesman she might have only worn jeans, intending to return home after and supervise the building work. Was she intending to go into the office afterwards or day off?

Also why was she running late? A reluctance to go or just a hectic morning. One would think the children would have been off to school much earlier, leaving her plenty of time to get ready and be on time.

Have they looked at where she would have been 10 minutes from her house by car for a pick up location at 9:50? That is roughly halfway between home and the leisure centre which is 20 minutes away. (google maps shows the route Google Maps )

I should watch some of the documentaries and appeals to see if any of these questions have been answered. Will do so later.

The various interviews etc say she wasn’t her usual self in the days beforehand. Don’t know how many days. She was running late that day buts it’s not clear why she was late. She apparently usually recorded all her appointments and there’s been much speculation as to what she actually meant by “appointment “. Whether it was a formal one or informal or even it was a cover for something else. The cash she withdrew was the most she had ever drawn in cash but I’ve not seen that put in context. How much more than normal was it?

Considering she withdrew it from their joint account it would be clear for her husband to see which makes it odder.

 

[CSIAngus]

Why was her window down for him to stab her through? She could have shouted if it was open before that, instead of miming for help. I would have thought he'd have just opened the driver's door to stab her.

Did her model have electric windows or manual? PB could have been incapacitated before the window was opened although you would expect blood spatter on the inside of the glass. Perhaps the first wound was to the throat, hence no screams. If you want to kill, the target is usually throat or heart. Also, if the killer was right handed he might struggle to finish the job from the passenger seat, hence finishing the job through the driver's window. Unless she was attacked from both sides simultaneously. In this scenario, an accomplice could have been following in the getaway car.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Agree. I also think there was an accomplice, who instigated the killing, and helped with the cars but was elsewhere at the time and thus ruled out, and that that person was a family member.

and on top of your opinion above I'd like to ask exactly who drew the money out and is there proof who drew it out?

 

[Officer Dibble]

Did her model have electric windows or manual? PB could have been incapacitated before the window was opened although you would expect blood spatter on the inside of the glass. Perhaps the first wound was to the throat, hence no screams. If you want to kill, the target is usually throat or heart. Also, if the killer was right handed he might struggle to finish the job from the passenger seat, hence finishing the job through the driver's window. Unless she was attacked from both sides simultaneously. In this scenario, an accomplice could have been following in the getaway car.

Agree, a right-hander would struggle from the passenger seat

 

[davidt]

and on top of your opinion above I'd like to ask exactly who drew the money out and is there proof who drew it out?

Apparently Penny drew it out in used £50 notes and it was put in to a brown manila envelope. Lauren saw the envelope in her mother’s bag. Again not sure if she had it with her on the day of her murder.

 

[CSIAngus]

Apparently Penny drew it out in used £50 notes and it was put in to a brown manila envelope. Lauren saw the envelope in her mother’s bag. Again not sure if she had it with her on the day of her murder.

Did she end up paying towards her own hit?

 

[Terryb808]

Did her model have electric windows or manual? PB could have been incapacitated before the window was opened although you would expect blood spatter on the inside of the glass. Perhaps the first wound was to the throat, hence no screams. If you want to kill, the target is usually throat or heart. Also, if the killer was right handed he might struggle to finish the job from the passenger seat, hence finishing the job through the driver's window. Unless she was attacked from both sides simultaneously. In this scenario, an accomplice could have been following in the getaway car.

This is a good theory, I’d have thought (although the police would not made this public) the autopsy would have said right handed or left handed and one or two assailants.
If it was two people with the second following, the getaway vehicle would have stopped directly behind Penny’s car, then no one would have witnessed the attack.

 

[CSIAngus]

This is a good theory, I’d have thought (although the police would not made this public) the autopsy would have said right handed or left handed and one or two assailants.
If it was two people with the second following, the getaway vehicle would have stopped directly behind Penny’s car, then no one would have witnessed the attack.

Yes, this theory is growing on me as it explains the getaway, the privacy of attack, and the attack from inside and outside of the vehicle. The autopsy would determine if there were two different weapons, unless the same type of weapon was used by both. Would it distinguish between one person and two waves of attack and that of one attack by two persons simultaneously? Would be interesting to see the forensic report of the crime scene and autopsy.

 

[Terryb808]

Yes, this theory is growing on me as it explains the getaway, the privacy of attack, and the attack from inside and outside of the vehicle. The autopsy would determine if there were two different weapons, unless the same type of weapon was used by both. Would it distinguish between one person and two waves of attack and that of one attack by two persons simultaneously? Would be interesting to see the forensic report of the crime scene and autopsy.

Agree, it would be good to see some crime scene evidence and read the autopsy report. As the case is still open I’d image none of this is in the public domain.
I’m surprised that the husbands former lovers came back clear when this was originally investigated.
The other strange thing is a similar attack occurred close to Penny’s, the attacker was chased by a passer by, but got away. I recall the police said there was no link.
Does anyone have any details on this?

 

[CSIAngus]

Just watched the Donal MacIntyre documentary where he assembles a crack team and comes up with...absolutely nothing new. They didn't mention the John Richmond character at all, yet his fingerprints were found in the car and he later tried to sell a story to the tabloids claiming he'd met her that morning. Why would he draw attention to himself? Unless he has a need to be associated with it.

Perhaps Penny was trying to buy someone off. She was a handsome woman who no doubt had admirers perhaps one of them became obsessed (can we say for definite that she'd not had a sexual encounter with a third party at some point?), wouldn't be bought off and it ended with an all or nothing situation, and the frenzied, if I can't have you no-one will, attack. Perhaps she'd already given him the £8,500 by then. He wouldn't need a car to get away if he had a bag with him and put overalls on to hide the blood. Do people remember anything about other people in busy places? I was in a supermarket yesterday with at least a hundred other people and I couldn't even desribe one now, not even the operative who took the security tag off my booze. The back of the car park leads straight on to park land.

And the earlier sighting near the Bridgettine Convent only said the man was standing near a car and not that he got out of it. Perhaps he'd caught a bus or came on foot, and that was just an agreed pick up point.

 

[davidt]

Just watched the Donal MacIntyre documentary where he assembles a crack team and comes up with...absolutely nothing new. They didn't mention the John Richmond character at all, yet his fingerprints were found in the car and he later tried to sell a story to the tabloids claiming he'd met her that morning. Why would he draw attention to himself? Unless he has a need to be associated with it.

Perhaps Penny was trying to buy someone off. She was a handsome woman who no doubt had admirers perhaps one of them became obsessed (can we say for definite that she'd not had a sexual encounter with a third party at some point?), wouldn't be bought off and it ended with an all or nothing situation, and the frenzied, if I can't have you no-one will, attack. Perhaps she'd already given him the £8,500 by then. He wouldn't need a car to get away if he had a bag with him and put overalls on to hide the blood. Do people remember anything about other people in busy places? I was in a supermarket yesterday with at least a hundred other people and I couldn't even desribe one now, not even the operative who took the security tag off my booze. The back of the car park leads straight on to park land.

And the earlier sighting near the Bridgettine Convent only said the man was standing near a car and not that he got out of it. Perhaps he'd caught a bus or came on foot, and that was just an agreed pick up point.

I watched that as well. Didn’t think it was well edited at all. The retired police officer who was with the lady psychologist hardly got a word in and I would have liked to have heard more from him.

It’s interesting hearing from Lauren but I didn’t think as far as the actual crime itself that the documentary added much.

It did as you say mention the possible pick up suspect was standing near a car and not in it so without further clarification we can’t know if it was his or not or even if it was Penny at all.

I can remember many years ago an experiment TV. I can’t remember the set up now but it involved setting up an incident and then asking a group of bystanders to describe the person involved. They were asked what the man looked like and his features, height and what he was wearing etc. They were asked this just a few minutes afterwards. Yet they all gave conflicting descriptions. Whether he had a beard or moustache, did he wear glasses, what was his height and so on. You could have made up a myriad of photofits from the replies.

So I’m always a bit sceptical over what witnesses claim to have seen.

As for the cash she withdrew it three days before she was killed. So it’s possible the money could have been used or handed over prior to that appointment. Other thing that strikes me about the cash is that she seemed to be somewhat casual about it. Lauren saw it in her bag and it was withdrawn from a joint account so it doesn’t appear she was particularly secretive about it. £8,500 in 1991 would be worth around double that now. Seems like a lot of cash but again it might not seem much at all to a wealthy person.

 

[CSIAngus]

I saw some analysis of eye witness accounts used to convict felons in the US and how they have been challenged and overturned by the introduction of DNA analysis. The person they picked out in the line up as the person they saw committing the crime couldn't possibly have done it. Some had been sentenced to death. It's something like half of wrongful convictions were based on eye witness accounts in one state.

So I am always skeptical about the eye witness accounts, especially the guy in the lorry's fleeting view of the man with his hand on the steering wheel, and the smartly dressed man in the car park with a blemish on the side of his face, though the latter may be significant.

I'm increasingly thinking that the perp had a sexual interest in Penny and that she didn't want anyone to know about it (may have been buying him off). She wasn't sexually assaulted but stabbing is a form of penetration. I think the car park wasn't planned but was a means of getting off the main road, and Penny may have thought there would be lots of people around. Unfortunately, there were not and he got lucky. He was able to commit the murder without being seen. Murder was definitely on his mind otherwise why carry the knife (unless he took it off Penny - were any kitchen knives missing from the family home?). The witnesses thought she was asleep at the wheel and only discovered her dead when they left the leisure centre, which to me gives the perp plenty of time hidden between car and hedge to do a rough clean. Would the blood show up much on black/dark clothes. Then he simply walked off up towards the A40 and public transport.

 

[davidt]

I minded to agree the car park was just a convenient place either for Penny or the attacker to get off the road. I didn't realise just how overgrown the spot where she parked was and it gives more shielding than I realised.

Has it ever been confirmed what weapon was used? Presumably a knife of some sort? Forensics are usually pretty good at working out what sort of knife and so on. I did wonder with 50 stab wounds if it was something quite small.

Could it be possible Penny had the £8,500 with her in order to pay someone off or a blackmailer or perhaps for some sort of deal but changed her mind and refused to hand it over leading to her passenger attacking her?

I did wonder if it was possible she picked up a random hitchhiker who attacked her but given she was already apparently running late that doesn't seem likely.

As for Richmond he comes across as a fantasist. That said his fingerprints were in the car and he did claim to have met her that day. Presumably the police had good reason to discount him so quickly. Which brings me on to another point. Has it ever been stated what, if any, other fingerprints/DNA were found and if any of them remained unidentified?