GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #14

[Insp.Dots]

Must admit, I'm still not convinced the Pros have proven NM guilty of Murder yet. I can't help but feel that the Prosecution have been very weak in their cross examination. I expected them to go in a lot harder. Does anyone else feel this way or is it a case of them thinking 'less is more'.
FWIW...IF I was on this Jury I would have wanted more before I found either NM or SH Guilty of Murder.

 

[iclaudia]

Yes, I believe there was a joint kidnap (soon to be followed by murder) plan.

No evidence of it though, is there?

 

[Jennibee]

Deleted as already posted.

 

[iclaudia]

Sexual!

I am going to stick my neck out and say that they planned to kidnap Becky and take her back to their home and violate her. I think they were going to keep her around for a few days and do what they planned. I think they hated her and chose her because of that hate and also because she fit his "type". I believe they would have murdered her shortly thereafter. I think we will find out that there is much more evidence that perhaps was inadmissible which led Pros to present his theory. I don't believe that the Crown would put forth the sexual motive with such conviction without hard evidence that this was the plan.

Does anyone know why evidence such as might be available above (BBM)? I don't understand why crucial evidence would be left out if it would help with a conviction..?

 

[Alyce]

Many thanks to Clio, Tortoise, Prime Suspect and Insp Dots for your updates re the timing of Becky arriving home on Feb 19 and AG departing to the hospital.

I had at one point read that Becky had not come home until 10 - 10.30 that day ( but that must have been MSM confusing the timing with AGs departure to the hospital ).

Based on Becky's arrival being at the later time of 10 00 I had been thinking that if NM had called AG before Becky got home, then AG would not have been able to say whether or not Becky was going to be at the house that day.
Therefore, it occurred to me that the reason for NM and SH going over there might have been nothing more than to simply laze around in a more comfortable house whilst AG was out - and therefore, everything that happened afterwards was totally unplanned.
However, if Becky was home by 8.30am, I doubt NM would have already phoned before then, so my theory cannot be correct.

 

[ColourPurple]

Does anyone know why evidence such as might be available above (BBM)? I don't understand why crucial evidence would be left out if it would help with a conviction..?

I found this opinion piece about why the *advertiser censored* evidence in the Joanna Yeates case was deemed inadmissable.

The police felt that once they had found that Tabak liked imagery of women, especially young blonde women, being strangled, it should be brought up in court.

The judge ruled this evidence inadmissible.

The prosecuting QC argued that Tabak’s penchant for what has been called ‘strangulation *advertiser censored*’ might shed light on the case.

The police also knew that Joanna’s body had been left in a pose copied from a film found on his computer.


Should this evidence have been admissible?

Mr Justice Field said that although Tabak’s choice of viewing was reprehensible, it was not valuable enough to outweigh the prejudice it would cause his defence.

These bits are also interesting

As he had admitted to strangling her, the question was one of doubt over his intent.

If he hadn’t meant to kill her, and if his version of events was to have been believed – an inexperienced man was invited into a lonely woman’s home and got flustered after she refused a kiss – then manslaughter would have been the right verdict. Presumably....

...The jury trying Tabak were swayed perhaps by the 43 injuries found on Joanna’s body – which in themselves implied something far more serious than a brush-off that went wrong.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ets-baffling-rules-justice.html#ixzz3qqH2eeD2

 

[Beesknees]

Must admit, I'm still not convinced the Pros have proven NM guilty of Murder yet. I can't help but feel that the Prosecution have been very weak in their cross examination. I expected them to go in a lot harder. Does anyone else feel this way or is it a case of them thinking 'less is more'.
FWIW...IF I was on this Jury I would have wanted more before I found either NM or SH Guilty of Murder.

I fully agree, I said it here before. Very poor work by the prosecution, mainly in a crime of this nature that had, have and will have so many implications for so many lives.

I know now as it was explained to me here that in the UK the pros can't have a so incisive or 'agressive' approach as in the US. They tend to be respectful and calm with the defendants.

Even so, the prosecutor with respect and quietness then, could have gone deeper, with more coverage of the so many discrepant facts and statements the defendants presented. I always thought he would do like a reconstitution with the case, with someone similar to Becky in weight and height, in switching the saw on, ... ... ...

It appears he was lazy or negligent or didn't want to bother, I don't know what to say. I only know I felt this since the very beginning but was always waiting a diferent approach from him until the end. And it never happened :thinking:

 

[Cherwell]

I thought DD was bailed?

IMBW but weren't they all remanded in custody originally? Not sure how long, but at some point later DD and JP were released on bail. She has a young child, but it's suggestive that DD was bailed and the other two weren't.

 

[Alyce]

IMBW but weren't they all remanded in custody originally? Not sure how long, but at some point later DD and JP were released on bail. She has a young child, but it's suggestive that DD was bailed and the other two weren't.

Yes they all went into custody in March and I think ( not 100% ) that they tried for bail in May but no one was bailed.
Then tried again and DD and JP got bail in August.

 

[Tortoise]

Must admit, I'm still not convinced the Pros have proven NM guilty of Murder yet. I can't help but feel that the Prosecution have been very weak in their cross examination. I expected them to go in a lot harder. Does anyone else feel this way or is it a case of them thinking 'less is more'.
FWIW...IF I was on this Jury I would have wanted more before I found either NM or SH Guilty of Murder.

So, the prosecution don't have an independent witness to the murder. How would I approach that as a juror?

Becky was murdered. The Post Mortem proves she was suffocated deliberately by a hand covering mouth and nose.

Either one, or both of them, murdered Becky.

These are the questions I would work through and my own answers -

1. Is there evidence it was NM? No
2. Is there evidence it was SH? No
3. Is there evidence it was a joint attack? - possibly but not certainly, - consider NM's physical capabilities/the extent of Becky's injuries and the time SH said she spent outside.
4. How long would it take from going up the stairs and opening Becky's door with no plan to kill her, to putting Becky's dead body in the boot? - put an estimate on it, with all that you know happened to her including a change of motive from kidnap to killing when Becky did not cooperate, restraint to remove alive, struggle moving from bedroom to landing, 40 injuries, suffocation (best case scenario ignore neck stabbing because its not certain) - 20 minutes? or longer?

5. How long would it take to clear up the scene and decide which possessions to put in a bag to make it look as if Becky has gone out? - estimate 10-15 minutes?

6. Would NM have been able to do all this, as well as cleaning blood from his hands and be completely recovered and looking normal by the time SH says she came back in 15-20 mins after she went out? No.

7. Would NM have known SH would be outside for 15-20 minutes when he was attacking Becky? No
8. If SH was outside, would she have heard Becky screaming through her open bedroom window, assuming she screamed or shouted? - probably
9. If SH was outside, did she come back in before NM had put Becky in the boot - probably
10. If SH was outside, did she come back in before NM had also cleared up the scene and packed Becky's things - definitely
11. Would NM have gone there with a plan to kidnap Becky without SH knowing? - Unlikely. If he did she would have discovered anyway.
12. Was it therefore a joint kidnap plan - probably
13. Do I believe SH went outside in the rain to smoke - very unlikely
14. Does it seem credible that someone would think 'I will use this opportunity while my partner has a cigarette to complete a kidnap on my own without her finding out?' - No
15. If it was a joint kidnap plan - did both parties accept that it may lead to serious harm of Becky? - high probability - they would be unlikely to walk away from such an assault on her, in the knowledge that AG knew they were there.

Others may have different answers to these questions, but I see them as going to the crux of the decisions.

 

[Alyce]

Tortoise I wish your post above ( 491 ) could be given to the Jury as a crib sheet, it is excellent.

 

[Hexenb]

Tortoise I wish your post above ( 491 ) could be given to the Jury as a crib sheet, it is excellent.

Totally agree when it is put like that a picture emerges of how much rubbish they have spouted!

 

[Cherwell]

Tortoise I wish your post above ( 491 ) could be given to the Jury as a crib sheet, it is excellent.

It is, but let's not underestimate the jury as they have seen and heard a lot more than we have. They will have the benefit of photographs, exhibits, statements which we have not heard in their entirety. They will also know about the child, and will consider the implications of her presence at the scenes.

 

[MissUnderstood]

I have followed many cases here on WS but this is the first that I have followed from the very beginning through to trial. It's a surreal experience to feel so involved from another part of our planet. I feel like I know Becky and I've lost her. If I feel the loss I can't imagine the pain and suffering of Becky's family and friends. I will follow this through and take a little break. I have 2 cases that will be coming up for trial soon so I'll be keeping my eye on those.

I think it's a very different experience when you read the first post and follow along to the final outcome than when you just pop in and out. I pop in and out quite a bit on various threads.

I agree, it does pull you in emotionally. Especially with this one, the murder and trial happened within months. Some families of victims wait years for a trial to even start! I just can't imagine those families waiting years for a trial while the suspect gets more rights than their loved one ever got!


MOO!!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I think a lot of the negative reaction to Shauna is maybe because Nathan has confessed and already entered a guilty plea to manslaughter.

I think if Nathan hadn't confessed and was pleading innocent to all charges then the focus would be on him but in this situation.

The people wanted their fight and Nathan already admitted defeat and so it fell to Shauna.

That's not it for me, it's not just about wanting a scapegoat, I would generally sway towards partners being innocent/ignorant of this type of case as it's so rare really for a couple to be involved.

It's more the fact that she was there - she was in the house when Becky was killed, in the house when she was dismembered over a period of time, shopping with NM when the stuff to help with the disposal and clean up was bought, and present again when it was arranged for her body to be hidden. That is why I think she's involved in some way, and the lies make me think it's a big way, not an incidental way.

 

[edgedweller]

Something is bugging me, I've obviously missed the bit in court where they talked about SH experiencing pain during sex. Can anyone link to that? I've seen a few people make reference to it but I must've missed that tweet/article!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Slightly random but something occurred to me today. I have an 8 year old son who has been very cuddly today. At one point I was carrying him from the living room to the kitchen and I struggled quite a lot. I passed him to hubby (a strapping 6 footer) who also said "you weigh a tonne!". We weighed him earlier and he is just over 4 stone.

My point is this. I think at 5'5" I am the same height as NM. I am also about the same weight as Becky was. It would be extremely difficult for someone my height to carry someone my weight, especially if that person were dead (ie not gripping hold or being cooperative). Add in the flight of stairs and the noise/logistics of getting a body down, then the opening of the front door, opening the car boot etc, would he have been able to do those things with a body in his arms? Then factor in NM was apparently too weak to peg washing out because of fibromyalgia. Surely he must have had help doing those things?

 

[Hexenb]

Slightly random but something occurred to me today. I have an 8 year old son who has been very cuddly today. At one point I was carrying him from the living room to the kitchen and I struggled quite a lot. I passed him to hubby (a strapping 6 footer) who also said "you weigh a tonne!". We weighed him earlier and he is just over 4 stone.

My point is this. I think at 5'5" I am the same height as NM. I am also about the same weight as Becky was. It would be extremely difficult for someone my height to carry someone my weight, especially if that person were dead (ie not gripping hold or being cooperative). Add in the flight of stairs and the noise/logistics of getting a body down, then the opening of the front door, opening the car boot etc, would he have been able to do those things with a body in his arms? Then factor in NM was apparently to weak to peg washing out. Surely he must have had help doing those things?

Exactly he is either lying he has fibro or he was helped moving Becky nothing will change my mind on that one

 

[Beesknees]

Slightly random but something occurred to me today. I have an 8 year old son who has been very cuddly today. At one point I was carrying him from the living room to the kitchen and I struggled quite a lot. I passed him to hubby (a strapping 6 footer) who also said "you weigh a tonne!". We weighed him earlier and he is just over 4 stone.

My point is this. I think at 5'5" I am the same height as NM. I am also about the same weight as Becky was. It would be extremely difficult for someone my height to carry someone my weight, especially if that person were dead (ie not gripping hold or being cooperative). Add in the flight of stairs and the noise/logistics of getting a body down, then the opening of the front door, opening the car boot etc, would he have been able to do those things with a body in his arms? Then factor in NM was apparently too weak to peg washing out because of fibromyalgia. Surely he must have had help doing those things?

Experience, reality, logical, wisdom and reason are giving you the answer!

 

[ColourPurple]

Thought this was interesting, though of course there's only 11 jurors now:

**************************************************

The Becky Watts trial - how will it work?

Here's what to expect from the seven week trial.

THE PROSECUTION

The prosecution get to present its evidence first.
They have to persuade a jury that the defendants are guilty of the charges, beyond reasonable doubt. The charges are:

Nathan Matthews, 28, and Shauna Hoare, 21:

• Conspiracy to kidnap
• Murder
• Perverting the course of justice
• Preventing Becky's lawful burial
• Possessing a prohibited weapon

James Ireland, 23, and Donovan Demetrius, 29:

• Assisting an offender

All deny the charges - which is why the case is going to trial before a jury.
Any witnesses called by the prosecution will be cross-examined by the defence.


THE DEFENCE

Once the prosecution closes its case the defence will begin.
Each defendant has their own barrister, who will present evidence on their behalf. They also call witnesses - who will be cross-examined by the prosecution.
This process will take slightly longer than the prosecution as all four defendants are entitled to put their version of events across, and call their own witnesses.
It is not for the defence to prove their client did not carry out the offence - they are innocent until proven guilty. They just have to ensure there is reasonable doubt in the mind of the jury.


SUMMING UP

Once all parties have put their arguments to the court the judge carries out what is known as a 'summing up' for the jury. This means they take all the evidence and recap it.
They will also give any directions at this point, which will be useful for the jury.


VERDICT

Once summing up has been done - and all directions given - the jury will retire to a special room where they are free to discuss their thoughts. A foreman/forewoman will be appointed, who will speak on behalf of all 12.
A verdict can take any length of time to reach - it is important not to rush the jury as justice must be done. However, after an agreed length and after discussions with all counsel, a judge can direct the jury to reach a majority verdict (usually where 10 or more agrees).

http://www.itv.com/news/west/2015-10-07/the-becky-watts-trial-how-will-it-work/