GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #8

[Clio]

Mmm, sometimes. I think it really does depend on the context of the errors. In this particular instance I would say the names of the places weren't really that important because we know where the van actually went and it's easy for a witness to mix up the names of places if they are not personally familiar with them and didn't go there themselves. I was more interested in the interactions between the 'players' in the events - that was what was key in this piece of evidence.

My point is that the evidence was mixed and confused enough such that a case could even be made that the people arguing were actually JP and KD. I understand that your point is that SH is not as scared of or controlled by NM as she makes out. I agree, but this particular evidence doesn't cut it as proof of that as it stands imho

 

[epiphany]

I'm a bit confused about the following:

Does Shauna place herself wide awake & coming up the stairs when she discovers an overpowering odor of bleach on the night she returns home from AG's (when NM went shopping for the electric saw) on Friday the 20th?

Yet NM states that he brought Becky's body into the bathroom, threw bleach down the toilet & locked the bathroom After SH went to sleep, so that in the morning she wouldn't enter the bathroom.


From Matthews' Confession:

The following day we went back around to 18 Crown Hill and I tried to behaved as normal. I tried to behave as I could. When we returned back to 14 Cotton Mill I again waited for Shauna to go to sleep, this time I collected the bag with Rebecca's body and take it to the bathroom.

I took the body out of the bag and placed it in the bath. In order to stop Shauna using the bathroom the following morning I poured drain cleaner down the toilet so I could tell Shauna it was blocked again...I also locked the door.

http://www.itv.com/news/west/2015-10-21/becky-watts-trial-matthews-confession-in-full/


"I think it was on Friday February 20 when I came back from Anjie's and I was unable to use the bathroom," she said.

"Nathan said to me that the toilet was blocked which it had before. I could smell bleach...

Hoare said she had asked Matthews why there was a bleach smell from the bathroom when she returned home from Becky's family home that night.

"He said 'Oh you can't use the bathroom, the toilet is blocked, I've put bleach and stuff down the toilet'," she told police.

http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...imed-unaware/story-28035571-detail/story.html


The smell was quite strong, it was not until I got to the top of the stairs I was like 'oh I can smell bleach' then he explained the toilet had been blocked.

– Shauna Hoare

http://www.itv.com/news/west/story/2015-10-21/becky-watts-trial-day-12/

 

[eneri12]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/ne...ts-latest-Body-parts-crime-scene-footage.html

Here's a great link to read up on. Plus it mentioned other names that were linked and investigated and more properties.

Thanks for this article. I took from it that NM and SHs house is in Southmead which would suggest JI was right.

Mmm, sometimes. I think it really does depend on the context of the errors. In this particular instance I would say the names of the places weren't really that important because we know where the van actually went and it's easy for a witness to mix up the names of places if they are not personally familiar with them and didn't go there themselves. I was more interested in the interactions between the 'players' in the events - that was what was key in this piece of evidence.

 

[Clio]

Thanks for this article. I took from it that NM and SHs house is in Southmead which would suggest JI was right.

No. SH's house is in Cotton Mill Lane, Barton Hill. NM lived in Cotton Mill Lane with SH although he gives his address to the court as Warmsley. SH's mother LD lived in Wilton Close, Southmead which is some miles away from Cotton Mill Lane. Becky's body was found at Barton Court, Barton Hill which is just a few yards away from Cotton Mill Lane

 

[Clio]

I'm a bit confused about the following:

Does Shauna place herself wide awake & coming up the stairs when she discovers an overpowering odor of bleach on the night she returns home from AG's (when NM went shopping for the electric saw) on Friday the 20th?

Yet NM states that he brought Becky's body into the bathroom, threw bleach down the toilet & locked the bathroom After SH went to sleep, so that in the morning she wouldn't enter the bathroom.
<rsbm>

Yes interesting isn't it. Does she mean she thinks it was Fri 20th she came back from AG's or does she mean she thinks it was when she came back from AG's that she smelt bleach?

SH says she was left at AG's on Friday 20th but NM says he left her there on Sat 21st. Which is it I wonder. AG must be able to confirm which day it was but we haven't heard that yet.

 

[Tortoise]

My point is that the evidence was mixed and confused enough such that a case could even be made that the people arguing were actually JP and KD. I understand that your point is that SH is not as scared of or controlled by NM as she makes out. I agree, but this particular evidence doesn't cut it as proof of that as it stands imho

what I took from it wasn't really that SH wasn't scared of or controlled by NM, it was that she had reached fever pitch by that time and she just burst.

this is my interpretation of that day 23rd Feb based on SH being complicit in everything - they had finished wrapping body parts and packing the cases, the bathroom had not had its final clean up, the police had come round and were trying to get in, they needed to get their car away in case the police turned up with sniffer dogs, SH was faced with no other place to run to than her Mum's after a bust up in which she had vowed never again to speak to her and had even not contacted her to let her know she had a granddaughter, that was tough for her because she told the police her Mum had treated her like crap so she clearly still had unresolved issues with her Mum, she had a 2 year old to look after and was pregnant, the police were on their tail and turned up at her Mum's to speak to her, so the net felt like it was closing in before they had had a chance to dispose of the body, it wasn't until the early hours of the next morning that they could chance making their journey back home not knowing if they were going to be intercepted by police during their disposal of the body, and then the final straw came for SH when other people now knew they had a desperate need to hide something illicit, the police were coming back first thing in the morning and the bathroom still needed to be sanitised, and she has been running on her nerves for virtually 24 hours if not nearly 4 days by that stage. I would say she was on the verge of having a nervous breakdown at that point.

But I do also think she wore the trousers.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm a bit confused about the following:

Does Shauna place herself wide awake & coming up the stairs when she discovers an overpowering odor of bleach on the night she returns home from AG's (when NM went shopping for the electric saw) on Friday the 20th?

Yet NM states that he brought Becky's body into the bathroom, threw bleach down the toilet & locked the bathroom After SH went to sleep, so that in the morning she wouldn't enter the bathroom.


From Matthews' Confession:

The following day we went back around to 18 Crown Hill and I tried to behaved as normal. I tried to behave as I could. When we returned back to 14 Cotton Mill I again waited for Shauna to go to sleep, this time I collected the bag with Rebecca's body and take it to the bathroom.

I took the body out of the bag and placed it in the bath. In order to stop Shauna using the bathroom the following morning I poured drain cleaner down the toilet so I could tell Shauna it was blocked again...I also locked the door.

http://www.itv.com/news/west/2015-10-21/becky-watts-trial-matthews-confession-in-full/


"I think it was on Friday February 20 when I came back from Anjie's and I was unable to use the bathroom," she said.

"Nathan said to me that the toilet was blocked which it had before. I could smell bleach...

Hoare said she had asked Matthews why there was a bleach smell from the bathroom when she returned home from Becky's family home that night.

"He said 'Oh you can't use the bathroom, the toilet is blocked, I've put bleach and stuff down the toilet'," she told police.

http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...imed-unaware/story-28035571-detail/story.html


The smell was quite strong, it was not until I got to the top of the stairs I was like 'oh I can smell bleach' then he explained the toilet had been blocked.

&#8211; Shauna Hoare

http://www.itv.com/news/west/story/2015-10-21/becky-watts-trial-day-12/

its things like this that the jury will pick up on. they haven't squared their stories and it wouldn't happen if the truth was being told. in fact as far as SH was concerned NM had been helping a friend that day and hadn't been at CML at all while SH was at Anjie's. My opinion is that he bought the saw, went back to CML and tried to get started on the dismembering but came up against a myriad of problems trying to do it without help.

 

[Cherwell]

I had forgotten that a third Demetrius brother had been arrested.

 

[Gigi-G]

Yes I think Shannon Demetrius had been arrested along with his brothers but let go with no charges.
I didn't realise that the Demetrius' mother also lived in the same vicinity as NM SH JP.
Quite a busy area for the Police investigation teams.

 

[Edinlass]

In all seriousness I'm surprised SM had ever smelt bleach before, I'm almost certain it must have been an alien smell to her...seen as I can't imagine she had ever used it in her life prior, ever! JMO.

I am a clean freak, I'll admit I'm not verging on OCD but my house is clean, my 5 year old gets upset if she drops anything, as in juice, food etc. (I do feel guilty about this) but anyway, watching NM's police interview I kept finding myself veering toward his hands, maybe because he kept looking at them I don't know but to me they looked absolutely filthy. These two have no hygiene practice & for her to have apparently been in the kitchen washing her hands after her smoke, just sounds unbeliveable to me like she had an afterthought as in this would be a good thing to say, takes up more time being away from the crime itself etc...strange the small things you pick up on I suppose. And of course could just be my way of thinking haha.

P.s. Please no crazy (nothing better to do with their time but to be awkward) person jump down my throat I am allowed my opinion & funnily enough I'm also entitled to it oh and I don't think me emotions can take it. Haha

 

[epiphany]

its things like this that the jury will pick up on. they haven't squared their stories and it wouldn't happen if the truth was being told. in fact as far as SH was concerned NM had been helping a friend that day and hadn't been at CML at all while SH was at Anjie's. My opinion is that he bought the saw, went back to CML and tried to get started on the dismembering but came up against a myriad of problems trying to do it without help.

Yes, agree. This poss slip as well as the young man seeing her awake (She was good-looking. She was crying. She was arguing with the male. She told him to get out.) the eve the packages were picked up will all contribute, among other testimony & evidence, to her eventual demise.

It also brings up the testimony from the neighbor who heard sound of things being moved in the upstairs part of the house on the 19th in the late morn/early afternoon. She could be wrong about the date, and what she heard may have occurred on the 20th. Prob cursing aloud (alone) with all the heavy work he had:


The following day (Feb 19), in the afternoon, Mrs Webb said she heard further noises from the flat.

"There was lots of running up and down the stairs very, very quickly, banging, slamming doors, scraping, furniture being moved, a suitcase being rolled across a wooden floor which was upstairs," she told the court.

"There was one voice at one point, a man's voice. He said one single word, I couldn't work out what it was.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-murder-trial-neighbour-6596349

In any event, it appears that he cleared out & prepared the bathroom, and moved her body very quickly imo.


Also, if she is off by one day, one day behind, the argument the neighbor heard the night before at approx time 6-7PM could have occurred not on the 18th, but on the early eve of the 19th when they returned home and begin fighting/arguing loudly as/after suitcases are brought into the home--- together.


IMO, this was done by the time SH returned home from AG's and smelled the bleach on the 20th as she was coming up the stairs.

May also account for the missing hours during his first shopping trip.

I believe the jury will be able to piece together most of it

 

[epiphany]

In all seriousness I'm surprised SM had ever smelt bleach before, I'm almost certain it must have been an alien smell to her...seen as I can't imagine she had ever used it in her life prior, ever! JMO.

I am a clean freak, I'll admit I'm not verging on OCD but my house is clean, my 5 year old gets upset if she drops anything, as in juice, food etc. (I do feel guilty about this) but anyway, watching NM's police interview I kept finding myself veering toward his hands, maybe because he kept looking at them I don't know but to me they looked absolutely filthy. These two have no hygiene practice & for her to have apparently been in the kitchen washing her hands after her smoke, just sounds unbeliveable to me like she had an afterthought as in this would be a good thing to say, takes up more time being away from the crime itself etc...strange the small things you pick up on I suppose. And of course could just be my way of thinking haha.

RBBM

Yes, imo, the cig smoking in the rain, the feeding the bunny rabbit and hand washing and hand washing has to be stretched and lengthened by them both for obvi reasons. And as much as it is lengthened, he still does not have enough time to have done what he claims to have accomplished in his confession in the time they both claim SH is not on the scene

 

[eneri12]

No. SH's house is in Cotton Mill Lane, Barton Hill. NM lived in Cotton Mill Lane with SH although he gives his address to the court as Warmsley. SH's mother LD lived in Wilton Close, Southmead which is some miles away from Cotton Mill Lane. Becky's body was found at Barton Court, Barton Hill which is just a few yards away from Cotton Mill Lane

Ahh ok I'm following now. Thanks.

 

[Edinlass]

RBBM

Yes, imo, the cig smoking in the rain, the feeding the bunny rabbit and hand washing and hand washing has to be stretched and lengthened by them both for obvi reasons

Yeah, the amount of times it has been emphasised that smoking is a no go for NM is beyond a joke tbh or just the mention of smoking in general. I get people not approving of their partners smoking habits but I mean the amount of times this has been thrown into the mix is beyond a joke. No smoke without fire they say...

 

[epiphany]

Yeah, the amount that has been emphasised on smoking is beyond a joke tbh. I get people not approving of their partners smoking habits but I mean the amount of times this has been thrown into the mix is beyond a joke. No smoke without fire they say...

Add a number of witnesses testifying to his fighting with her over her smoking...IF she knew nothing that morn, why would she even dare take a smoke with him inside the home + being pregnant?

As the pros stated in his opening, her entire story really is "ridiculous" and that becomes painfully obvious as ea day of the trial proceeds

 

[masekwm]

The smoking, I wonder if she was making a spliff and smoking it. Hence the time she was outside?

 

[Edinlass]

Add a number of witnesses testifying to his fighting with her over her smoking...IF she knew nothing that morn, why would she even dare take a smoke with him inside the home + being pregnant?

As the pros stated in his opening, her entire story really is "ridiculous" and that becomes painfully obvious as ea day of the trial proceeds

An apparent groomed from 14, terrified, timid & shy SH defies the odds & goes out for a smoke, 4 months pregnant in the rain knowing NM knows despite all his tribulations on smoking yet NM has NO problem with this infact talks about it openly in police interviews . If I was a groomed, timid, frightened from 14 years of age SH I would not be testing my older, more senior master!

She is not a puppet on a string, he could well be that, or of course they could both be equal, equal in this crime & equal in society.

 

[epiphany]

The smoking, I wonder if she was making a spliff and smoking it. Hence the time she was outside?

Ha, that would have added few more mins...but imo she/he would have said so. Cannot think of, cover everything, I suppose

 

[epiphany]

An apparent groomed from 14, terrified, timid & shy SH defies the odds & goes out for a smoke, 4 months pregnant in the rain knowing NM knows despite all his tribulations on smoking yet NM has NO problem with this infact talks about it openly in police interviews . If I was a groomed, timid, frightened from 14 years of age SH I would not be testing my older, more senior master!

She is not a puppet on a string, he could well be that, or of course they could both be equal, equal in this crime & equal in society.

I believe it became, at some point, more of a symbiotic relationship. Imo, both planned this & carried it out. I don't think one is more responsible than the other. It was a joint effort. They have an allegiance...to each other.

However, I cannot be convinced that since she became involved with him at only age 14 that she could have been controlling him from very early on. Perhaps, if he had been much closer in age to her, certainly the female could be the more dominant (14/16 or even 17). As she matured, and the age difference becomes less significant, things prob shifted.

IF she is convicted, that may or should imo be taken into account in her sentencing, but I don't know...

He molded her, groomed her, influenced her, enabled her to become who she is...too much psych, emotional development occurring during those years and he got a hold on her

 

[Edinlass]

I believe it became, at some point, more of a symbiotic relationship. Imo, both planned this & carried it out. I don't think one is more responsible than the other. It was a joint effort. They have an allegiance...to each other.

However, I cannot be convinced that since she became involved with him at only age 14 that she could have been controlling him from very early on. Perhaps, if he had been much closer in age to her, certainly the female could be the more dominant (14/16 or even 17). As she matured, and the age difference becomes less significant, things prob shifted.

IF she is convicted, that may or should imo be taken into account in her sentencing, but I don't know...

He molded her, groomed her, influenced her, enabled her to become who she is...too much psych, emotional development occurring during those years and he got a hold on her

Yup..100% in agreement with you.